Astroboy, techno superstar!

[jeffbert]

While I myself, am guilty of bringing politics into this forum that should be apolitical, and stick to stuff about cartoon characters, Atom, in particular, I do recognize that limiting the scope of topics also detracts from our expression of opinion. Sometimes one can be overcome with emotion after seeing provocative images. I cannot relate to military or ex-military personnel's outrage at anything such as this. I think I can understand it though. france has repaid the USA's saving its ass in two world wars by dragging it into Indochina, after france's attempt to recapture its former colony went South. Then, france's economic ties to Iraq went against its obligation to support UN resolutions regarding that nation. I remember reading about W. Churchill's fears of US indifference in 1940 (because of, I assume a supposed US grudge against Britain because of the War of 1812). But we had no grudge, and at worst supported Britain as an enemy of my enemy being my friend type of thing. I think that much of Britain's current pro-USA stance is because of her gratitude for US military in WWII. I do not know much about the differences between democracy in Britain & in france, or communist/socialist parties in either. Nevertheless, france should remember the thousands of Americans who paid for her liberation with their arms, legs, eyes, & lives. I thought it was a monumental error allowing De gaulle to liberate Paris. The french people were thus allowed a delusion: they defeated Germany. They should have instead seen bedraggled US soldiers marching into Paris, muddy feet & all. Perhaps if they had, they might have a different attitude.

The Brits had Americans out the whazoo, before & during operations on the mainland. They knew to whom they owed, & how much. They knew about the Lend-lease, the convoys of supplies, the many who died trying to keep Britain alive during the heyday of the Wolfpacks, the airwar, & beyond. American presence in WWII Britain lasted for about 4 years, while in france, only about a year. Perhaps this accounts in part for the pro-American policies in Britain, and anti- in france. :huh:

[fafner]

Originally posted by jeffbert@Oct 22 2004, 07:44 PM
While I myself, am guilty of bringing politics into this forum that should be apolitical, and stick to stuff about cartoon characters, Atom, in particular, I do recognize that limiting the scope of topics also detracts from our expression of opinion.

I understand there is free speech, however seeing such a caption based on racism is something I couldn't stand without reacting. In fact I am not exactly sure wich one makes me mad the most: the controversial, unprovoked and off-topic attack or the racism displayed.
I thought this needed a good slap so dannavy85 realized the consequences of what he/she says.

[Le petit robot]

First of all, I'd like to apologize about my limited capacities in the Shakespearian language. I'm not a native english speaker and, therefore, I can't speak as well as you do. However, I can't read so many untruthes and historical adaptations without reacting.

The first point dannavy85 dealt with was the various technologies and arms sold by France to the Iraq government during the 70s and the 80s. He certainly forgot that most of the western countries did exactly the same at this period (especially the UK and the US) because the new regime of Saddam Hussein appeared then as the last bastion against the islamic dictature of Iran (by the way, Khomeny would never come to power in Iran if the US authorities had kept supporting the Shah regime in spite of his non-absolute submition to them).

Next, that "dear" dannavy85 mentionned as an argument to justify his accusation against France of crime against the Iraq people ( ) the UN Food for Oil program. You, "boy" (since apparently, we call each other this way :huh: ) certainly don't remember exactly what was this program. It has been designed in the middle of the 90s. At this time, Iraq supported a total embargo, Americans thinking that this measure would weaken the regime of Saddam Hussein by impoverishing his people. In fact, this decision had the opposite effect, unifying the Iraq people behind its leader against a foreign aggression. Moreover, medicines didn't get in Iraq, food was rare and the mortality rate of children in this country has become one of the highest in the world as well as the life expetancy collapsed. That's why France and lots of other european countries decided to propose this idea: oil couldn't be sold by Iraq as freely as it was before the war in Koweit but a small quantity could be exchange each month against food for Iraq people. I really don't understand how this program, adopted by the UN (which means a majority of countries of this planet: I know democracy could be very exasperating sometimes ), could be assimilate to a "crime against the Iraq people".

OK, let's move to point 3: "French undercutting of UN authority in helping Saddam violate 16 UN resolutions". It's quite easy to make offensive remarks about somebody without justifying your words. I can't answer to such an unfounded assertion. I can just observe that, without any UN authorisation, one country has invaded another one, a smaller one, a poorer one, which had not aggress it, and this country is not France. So, who undercut UN authority?

"4) French government attempts to aid Saddam in violating UN resolution 1441."
Again a groundless accusation. The only thing I can say about Saddam Hussein is that his regime wasn't good for Iraq and for anyone and that I don't miss him at all. However, I don't think that the situation now in Iraq is better. Each day, more and more people die there and, local populations, humiliated by the presence of a foreign army on their soil, get more fanatic, hating the whole world and western countries in particular. I'm not sure world is safer now. Transferring democracy in dictatorial countries can't be decided in Washington, London, Paris, Berlin or Rome. We can try to favor local initiatives but, unfortunately, not create them.

Well, after having read your message here, dannavy, I'm still looking for a french crime against humanity in Iraq. I'm not sure you know the definiton of such a crime but it has a precise meaning in International law and I invite you to have a look at a law dictionary to have a better idea of this notion. If you also look for the definition of "war crimes", you'll see that "rape" can be one of these crimes (I'm sure you understand what I'm talking about).

I've hesitated a lot before writing this message because this kind of discussions has nothing to do with Astroboy but I definately can't leave someone so agressive transform truth so much.

Concerning now what Jeffbert wrote, there's also lots of things to say but I'm a bit tired and I don't wanna fight again and again.

However, I just wanna mention that the US went to war in 1942, not in 1939 or 1940. The reason of this decision was the attack of Pearl Harbour by the Japanese army, not the invasion of Poland, Denmark, Norway, Belgium, Greece, Russia, the Netherlands or France. However, that's true that french people (and Europeans in general) was very grateful to the Americans to help them to fight the Nazis. But I thought we were independent countries (how naive I can be sometimes! and therefore, that we were free to take our own decisions. Most of them are close to the american ones because we are alleys with the US (not slaves to them) and because we share the same european based culture. If, sometimes, Europeans don't agree with Americans, it's not because they hate them. It's just because they have another opinion. When two people love each other, they can't think the same all the time. Sometimes, they even quarrel. However, fortunately, this lovers'tiff doesn't mean necessarily they don't love each other anymore. We don't hate you. Please, understand that.

[cybotron]

Originally posted by dannavy85@Oct 22 2004, 05:02 PM
Can you just give one example of a french crime against the Iraq people?

Boy, where to begin?

1) The nuclear weapons fuel capable reactor at Osirisk, given to Saddam by Jaques Cherac in 1979?

2) The UN Food for Oil program.

3) French undercutting of UN authority in helping Saddam violate 16 UN resolutions.

4) French government attempts to aid Saddam in violating UN resolution 1441.

I wonder why the French stopped flying patrols over the UN no-fly zones in 1995, if not for the return back scratching of Saddam's regime.

that's my last post on this subject. Having Astro in France is a disgrace to the qualities of goodness he represents....at least you don't see him screwing a population over for a back rub...unlike France.

The Beslan Russia school reopens.... Pictures and news fromm BBC
I hope you and the kids are safe aboard your ship, and I pray God will bring you all back from the War against those murdering fiends safe and sound.
It is not possible to talk to some of these detractors in a sane and intelligent manner.
It is not possible to remove the political and military aspect of Astroboy. I showed that Astro worked with the police and intelligence agency's of Metro city, and that he was in fact therefore an agent of both the Police and security. Even this obvious truth was beyond their understanding and I was condemned by them. The Judeo-Christian based world is in a desperate fight against a worldwide conspiracy of Jihadists, the ancient cult of assassins. Trust no one. Take nothing for granted. Remember ONI (and U.S. Cyber Intel) is monitoring all cyber comm. Don't let these whatever they are draw you into a conversation that will get you in trouble. They are not what they seem. They know nothing of Astroboy or the Astroboy cultus in Japan and seem to take every oppurtunity to strike out at the foundations of Astro pop culture. A Scientific Exploration has been mounted.
And Knightsbridge has been informed of these activities. :wahah:

The S.E.S.
The MCA is inspecting and Gen.Palm is watching.


further data can be had at this link
X-2 intelligence
and data on the enemy can be had here...
The Ancient cult of the Assassins

[cybotron]

Urgent.... New....
The CBC newsfeed. Canada comes online.... Astro intel
also text
CBC... The Abubaker affair

[LLJade]

May I point out one thing, since some people seem to be so offended by the idea of Astro being in France.

Just because the government makes a decision, does not mean the people agree with it.

That's really all I have to say on the issue. Oh, and for the record, I've been to France, it's quite lovely and I would LOVE to return there again.

Lauren

[cybotron]

Originally posted by LLJade@Oct 23 2004, 01:04 PM
May I point out one thing, since some people seem to be so offended by the idea of Astro being in France.

Just because the government makes a decision, does not mean the people agree with it.

That's really all I have to say on the issue. Oh, and for the record, I've been to France, it's quite lovely and I would LOVE to return there again.

Lauren

And France will be at the forefront on the Assassins euro terror ops.
A law banning Islamic headscarves and other religious symbols from French state schools came into effect on Thursday, the first day of term.

[cybotron]

dannavy wrote:
"I..... wonder why the French stopped flying patrols over the UN no-fly zones in 1995, if not for the return back scratching of Saddam's regime.

that's my last post on this subject. Having Astro in France is a disgrace to the qualities of goodness he represents....at least you don't see him screwing a population over for a back rub...unlike France...."

The Beslan Russia school reopens.... Pictures and news fromm BBC
I hope you and the kids are safe aboard your ship, and I pray God will bring you all back from the War against those murdering fiends safe and sound.
It is not possible to talk to some of these detractors in a sane and intelligent manner.
It is not possible to remove the political and military aspect of Astroboy. I showed that Astro worked with the police and intelligence agency's of Metro city, and that he was in fact therefore an agent of both the Police and security. Even this obvious truth was beyond their understanding and I was condemned by them. The Judeo-Christian based world is in a desperate fight against a worldwide conspiracy of Jihadists, the ancient cult of assassins. Trust no one. Take nothing for granted. Remember ONI (and U.S. Cyber Intel) is monitoring all cyber comm. Don't let these whatever they are draw you into a conversation that will get you in trouble. They are not what they seem. They know nothing of Astroboy or the Astroboy cultus in Japan and seem to take every oppurtunity to strike out at the foundations of Astro pop culture. A Scientific Exploration has been mounted.
And Knightsbridge has been informed of these activities. :wahah:

The S.E.S.
The MCA is inspecting and Gen.Palm is watching.


further data can be had at this link
X-2 intelligence
and data on the enemy can be had here...
The Ancient cult of the Assassins [/QUOTE]
Urgent.... New....
The CBC newsfeed. Canada comes online.... Astro intel
also text
CBC... The Abubaker affair

[jeffbert]

Originally posted by Le petit robot@Oct 22 2004, 07:46 PM
First of all, I'd like to apologize about my limited capacities in the Shakespearian language. I'm not a native english speaker and, therefore, I can't speak as well as you do. However, I can't read so many untruthes and historical adaptations without reacting.



Concerning now what Jeffbert wrote, there's also lots of things to say but I'm a bit tired and I don't wanna fight again and again.

However, I just wanna mention that the US went to war in 1942, not in 1939 or 1940. The reason of this decision was the attack of Pearl Harbour by the Japanese army, not the invasion of Poland, Denmark, Norway, Belgium, Greece, Russia, the Netherlands or France. However, that's true that french people (and Europeans in general) was very grateful to the Americans to help them to fight the Nazis. But I thought we were independent countries (how naive I can be sometimes! and therefore, that we were free to take our own decisions. Most of them are close to the american ones because we are alleys with the US (not slaves to them) and because we share the same european based culture. If, sometimes, Europeans don't agree with Americans, it's not because they hate them. It's just because they have another opinion. When two people love each other, they can't think the same all the time. Sometimes, they even quarrel. However, fortunately, this lovers'tiff doesn't mean necessarily they don't love each other anymore. We don't hate you. Please, understand that.

Please do not misquote me, I said nothing about when the US went to war. I mentioned 1940 because, if I am not mistaken, that year saw either the German air attacks or U-boat against Britain or her merchant ships. Hitler first wanted to starve Britain into submission, failing that, he hoped to bomb it into submission. US involvement in and with Britain began long before D-day, that was my point, or rather the premise upon which I based my conclusion. Britain remains more closely allied tothe USA than France, because the US involvement during WWII lasted much longer. Admittedly, there is a major flaw with this theory, namely that Germany had the most recent aid, in the form of the Berlin Airlift, that based upon this theory, should have resulted in a higher degree of gratitude than what now seems to be the case. Granted, it seems unreasonable to hold the debt over their heads for so long. Furthermore, it just is not the same as one man owing a debt to another. An entire nation, & moreover, several generations, being held accountable for the debt of their fathers.

Forgive my not having made that clear before.

You were correct: during the time when Iran was in the clutches of the Ayotollah K, by the theory of an enemy of my enemy, Iraq became our friend, & we very likely supplied it with military aid, in what form, I know not. The USA has made some of its enemies stronger, but this was while they were friends. Panama, Afghanistan, & Iraq, to name 3. Unfortunately, with our system of democray with its 4-year presidential term, has, by the standards of other nations, some irratic & unstable foreign policies. One President makes pals with a given nation for what seem at the time, politically expedient reasons. Once he is out of office, his successor might ally himself with that nation's enemies, again for what seem at the time, politically expedient reasons.

I place no blame upon france for the reasons dannavy85 does, but rather, because of the reasons I have already given: The USA has bailed out france thrice last century, the third time was because france was the aggressor, but was also too weak to do the job. The US came in under the premise of halting communist expansion in S. E. Asia, & france withdrew her forces, leaving US forces in the lurch. The result was chaos at home, body bags, POWs, & MIAs in Vietnam. france even taught Ho Chi Minh how to be a communist. Yes, he went to communist meetings in france. However, he was the wrong color, to come under the "Liberty, fraternity, equality" slogan, so france felt no compulsion to honor its own ideas about national sovereignty, local rule over nations, & such. Ho's country had been under french colonial rule before WII, and would have been again had its soldiers had the stomach for fighting.

france is like the guy in the parable. He owed $100,000,000 but could not pay. He asked for time to pay, but his lord just forgave the debt. Then the guy goes out and throws another guy into debtor's prison, becuase he cannot repay the $5.00 he borrowed. Except, in the case of france, his lord did not put his debt back on him, he rather beat the crap out of the guy who owed $5.00.

But as I said, it is not right to hold a nation to the same standard as one would hold an individual, or is it? :huh:

[LLJade]

Again, I repeat, and I do hope for the last time:

Just because the government makes a decision, DOES NOT mean the people agree with it. One should not be angry at the country or the people in general just because of a decision that country's government made. There's a word for people who do such things, a word I'm not going to say. Can anyone here honestly say that their country's government is the greatest thing in the world and that they made no bad decisions within their history?

Lauren