Astro is NOT related to Pinocchio

[DrFrag]

Johnny 5 was more like Pinnochio. He was created as a mere object/machine, then came to be more than that. Astroboy was created by Temna specifically to have a soul from the point of his activation. But I think Tezuka was probably inspired by the Pinnochio story to some degree - he admits to being heavily into the story at the time of coming up with Astroboy. I think the parallel lies in the rejection by the creator, and the striving for equality with humans (although I'm not very familiar with the Pinnochio story).

But as to whether Astroboy has a spirit is a whole different matter. I would say no, but then again who knows what a spirit is? Who can define it? How do you measure its presence?
Then again, you might view the soul and spirit as the same thing. I don't, but it's all very esoteric and intangable. So whatever.

I n reference to the new series, do not believe Atom was resurrected. Tenma merely created him with false memories (Total Recall)

I would say Blade Runner is a better example. Doug Quaid in Total Recall already had a life, then his memory was wiped and he was given new false memories. In Blade Runner, Rachel (and Decker I suppose) were articifial beings who were given false memories on top of no memories. Astro never had his memory wiped.

Data from Star Trek is another interesting case. In one episode a scientist wanted to deactivate him and disassemble him for positronic research. It went to court and basically came down to this: does Data have a soul? Is he alive? I think the answer was Does anyone have a soul? And the addition of his emotion chip later on seemed to cement his status as a living being.

In one of the Astroboy mangas (or was it one of the early 2003 episodes?) someone told Astroboy that he was the link between humans and machines. Yes he was a robot, but unlike any other and capable of feeling emotion.

[DrFrag]

Hey I just thought of something interesting. Does anyone remember The Man-Made Solar Sphere from the 80s series of Astroboy?

There was a detective called Randolph Holmes who was in an accident. They took him to robot hospital and the robots there din't know how to treat him, so they cut his body up and replaced it with machine parts. All that was left human was his head. After that he hated robots, but he was still basically human only with a prosthetic body. Then later he gets shot in the head and has to have his head replaced with a prosthetic one. So now his entire body is machine. But did he die? He kept his memories and personalities and everything, but he was now a robot.

And in The Robot Vikings, Uran asks the vet to make Jump into a robot dog to stop him from dying.

[jeffbert]

So now his entire body is machine. But did he die? He kept his memories and personalities and everything, but he was now a robot.

And what about the guy in the original Star Trek, the episode with Richard Keil (Kiel?) as Rock. He suffered likewise, and had an android body but kept his 'soul', or the essence of his self.

Regarding the soul or spirit, Strongs' Concordance states that these words initially meant breath, and I know we already argued about whether Atom has breath or not. I am currently studying mythology. The course is based upon Joseph Campbell's lectures and books. We are just now getting into Hinduism & Buddhism. More on this later.

[cybotron]

Originally posted by jeffbert@Mar 5 2004, 01:43 PM
So now his entire body is machine. But did he die? He kept his memories and personalities and everything, but he was now a robot

[b]And what about the guy in the original Star Trek, the episode with Richard Keil (Kiel?) as Rock. He suffered likewise, and had an android body but kept his 'soul', or the essence of his self.

Regarding the soul or spirit, Strongs' Concordance states that these words initially meant breath, and I know we already argued about whether Atom has breath or not. I am currently studying mythology. The course is based upon Joseph Campbell's lectures and books. We are just now getting into Hinduism & Buddhism. More on this later. .

[/b]

We are not talking "breath"... We are talking "Ghost" which has memory and intelligence. the concept is Vedan /Hindu/Buddhist/Christian/Moslem/Jewish.... Life after death..., B) B) B) h34r: h34r: h34r:

[jeffbert]

Do you think there is no resurrection in the Buddha? The vehicle of the Buddha is the resurrected

Gautama's quest was to find an end to disire. This would also result in a metaphysical union of one's self with the universal self, and end the cycle of birth, death, rebirth. Enlightenment meant that one would not be reborn into this world of suffering.

We are not talking "breath"... We are talking "Ghost" which has memory and intelligence. the concept is Vedan /Hindu/Buddhist/Christian/Moslem/Jewish.... Life after death..

I guess I should have been more clear. While there are many who insist that the Hebrew scriptures support life after death from the very start, ie Genesis, there is merit to the assertion that the OT has only one book that clearly supports a belief in an sfterlife. That book is Daniel. But the Hebrew, Aramiac, or Greek words that are translated spirit do not mean anything metaphysical, but merely breath. This implies that only the living have spirits, because only the living breathe.

Eccl 3:19-22
19 Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless.
20 [b]All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return.
21 Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?"
22 So I saw that there is nothing better for a man than to enjoy his work, because that is his lot. For who can bring him to see what will happen after him?
(NIV)

[/b]

Dan 12:1-3
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 [b]And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
(KJV)

[/b]

Without a doubt, there is a clear evolution of doctrine. Daniel was written later than Ecclesiastes, and when the nation was undergoing great upheaval. There had to be a reason to die for the faith, and so it was written.


I really wish I had avoided this discussion, because I can see where it is going, and would rather avoid making enemies. :wacko:

[jeffbert]

[24] And the woman said to Elijah, Now by this I know that thou art a man of God, and that the word of the LORD in thy mouth is truth....."
1 kings 17

The resurrection of the dead.... In the Torah. Note the phrase"there was no breath left in him..."

Ok, a corpse returned to life, but this is not the same thing as is implied by the metaphysical definition of spirit. eg, that the soul survives the body's death and goes to paradise or as Sebastion Cabbot in an episode of the Twillight zone, put it, "the other place."

The Buddha must be Reborn in order to bring elightenment into the world, thus the trillions of incarnations of the Buddha... The enlightened desires to save and intercede for the betterment of all creatures, this is Bodhisattva, the saviour from heaven...

I may have misunderstood, but I thought Gautama by acheiving enlightenment became the Buddha, in that he had broken the cycle, and would not be reborn. Yet here you state that he will be.

Gimme a few days to read up on this.

[jeffbert]

I just started Android Kikaider: Vol. 1: Lonely Soul, and it opens with a young woman reading a beddy-bye-time story to a sleepy little boy. The Story is Pinocchio, the Disney version. How do I know? The cricket was the little guy's conscience. This was a Disney idea, for the novel has him squash the bug that tries to tell him what to do.

[cybotron]

Well I've already said too much... Next I'll be giving you the magic words of the Ma'Jinn, to prove my point that Astro has a ghost.... Enjoy the show this monday and Love and joy.
:wahah: :wahah: :wahah: h34r: h34r: h34r: h34r: h34r:

[DrFrag]

I really wish I had avoided this discussion, because I can see where it is going, and would rather avoid making enemies.

No problem with me, I don't mind this kind of discussion. I'm quite sure I'm not the holder of absolute truth, and as far as I'm concerned religious conversion is the job of the Holy Spirit. We're all Astro fans here and I'm sure different spiritual beliefs isn't going to mess that up!

Regarding the soul or spirit, Strongs' Concordance states that these words initially meant breath, and I know we already argued about whether Atom has breath or not.

The reason I differentiate between soul and spirit is that in Heb 4:12 it says:

For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Secondly, regardless of the initial meaning of soul or spirit, it has a different meaning to the word breath today. It's perfectly understandable that it used to be a term to mean life, because living people breathe and dead people don't. But similar expressions are seen throughout the bible - when Stephen dies in Acts 7 it says he fell asleep. Obviously he wasn't stoned to sleep, it's just an expression.
If you use the word breath to literally equate to soul or spirit today, you run into all kinds of complications. What happens to my soul or spirit when I hold my breath? Does a car have a soul or spirit? It burns oxygen for energy, the essence of what we do as breathing. If not, is a person on an iron lung without a soul or spirit because their breathing is also mechanical?
OT references to a person's breath as used in the context of the spirit of life should be interpreted as spirit rather than the physical act of breathing with our lungs.

So, I agree that Astro doesn't breathe, as he has no physiological need to. But I think it's incorrect to equate this to an absence of a soul or spirit.

Keeping in mind that Astroboy is a cartoon character and isn't actually real I would say that within the context of the story he has a soul. To elaborate, in my understanding the soul is where the consciousness and mind and emotion resides. Astro has these. I have a hard time accepting that Astro has a spirit however, since it's never claimed that Dr Tenma created life. If Astro was physically destroyed I don't think there would be a part that lived on and went to heaven or wherever. He wasn't created by God.

Next I'll be giving you the magic words of the Ma'Jinn, to prove my point that Astro has a ghost

I don't think any words outside those of Tezuka's are valid for that. Unless you believe that Astroboy is a literally real being.