Astro is NOT related to Pinocchio

Talk about all things Astro Boy!
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jeffbert
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Postby jeffbert » 21 years ago

You started this thread with:
Astro is not "Pinocchio".... We need to understand this. Astro is a resurrected being like Christ or Genesa. The creator of Astro's Good is also the creator of The Atlas evil, and is therefore an analog of God. Clearly. "Pinocchio" has never lived, and was a piece of wood draped wit a garment from the start. Astro has recurring memories of his former life....


To which I responded thus:
In reference to the new series, do not believe Atom was resurrected. Tenma merely created him with false memories (Total Recall), so that although he was a robot, he would behave as though he were Tobio Tenma/Astor Boynton. He, just as Scharzenegger's character thus remembered things that he never experienced, and could not discern between his real memories and those implanted false memories.


I clearly see my point being that of Atomu's 'memories' of his life as Tobio were false memories, implated by Tenma so that Atomu would appear to be the same boy as Tobio. Temna would thus treat him as though he were Tobio the boy, rather than Tobio the robotic replacement for the dead boy.

There is no resurrection in this.

Allowing that you were logged out at the time, I take this to be your response:
I must disagree with you.... Astro has soul, Kikoorooo or however you say it. The essence of a human heart, that's the entire premise of the anime. and i'm sure you will find out later that he is in fact Tobio reborn.


The first of three paragraphs of my response was:
Nuku Nuku also has kokoro. However, Kokoro has nothing to do with resurrection. A robot that had been deactivated then reactivated does not equal a human that had been dead but was later resurrected. Although, in the new series, reactivation was a bit more than merely flipping the 'on' switch, it was more reminiscent of the first Frankenstein film, than Christ rising from the dead.


In this I see that I lost track of the subject, and wandered elsewhere. Heart, Korkoro, or Jiru's Gemini device, only serve to make the robot capable of certain value judgements that a purely logic-oriented being cannot make. The ability to know that killing is wrong and that the robot must refuse his creator's orders is what makes Kikaider, Atomu, Nuku Nuku, able to function as humans function. But there is nothing here about an afterlife, a soul (in the Christian sense), or anything metaphysical.

Notwithstanding, I allow that different people will derive different meanings from this series, or from anything else, for that matter. There are political differences, yet the one US Constitution, there are religious differences, yet the one Bible, Quran, Upanashads, or what have you. I studied critical approaches to both writing and literature, and examined some very different interpretations of various novels and other things. A person who has suffered religious persecution might see Frankenstein as a rebuttal of Calvinism. While another person who is a scientist, might see the same work as a warning against unchecked technological advancement. I know I saw somewhere that that was Tezuka-san's intention with Tetsuwan Atomu. Now, as to whether or not his successors are using the current series to convey that same message, I cannot say with any authority. B) B) ^_^ ^_^ So, if you see a resurrection theme in the series, good for you. But if you see that theme, perhaps you can cite some specific evidence that supports your opinion.
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cybotron
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Postby cybotron » 21 years ago

Originally posted by jeffbert@Mar 16 2004, 08:36 AM

Notwithstanding, I allow that different people will derive different meanings from this series, or from anything else, for that matter. There are political differences, yet the one US Constitution, there are religious differences, yet the one Bible, Quran, Upanashads, or what have you. I studied critical approaches to both writing and literature, and examined some very different interpretations of various novels and other things. A person who has suffered religious persecution might see Frankenstein as a rebuttal of Calvinism. While another person who is a scientist, might see the same work as a warning against unchecked technological advancement. I know I saw somewhere that that was Tezuka-san's intention with Tetsuwan Atomu. Now, as to whether or not his successors are using the current series to convey  that same message, I cannot say with any authority.  B)  B)  ^_^  ^_^ So, if you see a resurrection theme in the series, good for you. But if you see that theme, perhaps you can cite some specific evidence that supports your  opinion.

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It should be obvious that Tezuka'San was working to his own plan
And that he could choose his projects and do whatever he wanted.... It is obvious he planned to fuse these elements. Look at the stories he chose to animate. But trying to tell someone who has no knowledge about apocalyptic metaphor ,
(Main Entry: apoc·a·lypse
Pronunciation: &-'pä-k&-"lips
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, revelation, Revelation, from Late Latin apocalypsis, from Greek apokalypsis, from apokalyptein to uncover, from apo- + kalyptein to cover -- more at HELL
1 a : one of the Jewish and Christian writings of 200 B.C. to A.D. 150 marked by pseudonymity, symbolic imagery, and the expectation of an imminent cosmic cataclysm in which God destroys the ruling powers of evil and raises the righteous to life in a messianic kingdom b capitalized : REVELATION 3
2 a : something viewed as a prophetic revelation b : ARMAGEDDON )...

about the works of a master of Heavenly mysteries like Sensei Tezuka'San is impossible. Like trying to read the walls of Egypt without the Rosetta stone..... It is secret.... Intended for the initiated.
Not the casual observer.... Not the adversaries of heaven.
Like a redneck invading the Xaolin temple. Or a Philistine wannabe reading Genesis. The message and metaphor are secret.
Main Entry: met·a·phor
Pronunciation: 'me-t&-"for also -f&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French or Latin; Middle French metaphore, from Latin metaphora, from Greek, from metapherein to transfer, from meta- + pherein to bear -- more at BEAR
1 : a figure of speech in which a word or phrase literally denoting one kind of object or idea is used in place of another to suggest a likeness or analogy between them (as in drowning in money); broadly : figurative language -- compare SIMILE
2 : an object, activity, or idea treated as a metaphor : SYMBOL 2
- met·a·phor·ic /"me-t&-'for-ik, -'fär-/ or met·a·phor·i·cal /-i-k&l/ adjective
- met·a·phor·i·cal·ly /-i-k(&-)lE/ adverb
It is Apocryphon
Apocryphon(ie. secret writing)
this is the realm of the Isanagi and the Isanami and the Ninja and the D'Jinn.
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Postby jeffbert » 21 years ago

Why did you bother to quote my last posting, but neglect to address any of the points I made? ;) ;)

[b]Notwithstanding, I allow that different people will derive different meanings from this series, or from anything else, for that matter. There are political differences, yet the one US Constitution, there are religious differences, yet the one Bible, Quran, Upanashads, or what have you. I studied critical approaches to both writing and literature, and examined some very different interpretations of various novels and other things. A person who has suffered religious persecution might see Frankenstein as a rebuttal of Calvinism. While another person who is a scientist, might see the same work as a warning against unchecked technological advancement. I know I saw somewhere that that was Tezuka-san's intention with Tetsuwan Atomu. Now, as to whether or not his successors are using the current series to convey  that same message, I cannot say with any authority.        So, if you see a resurrection theme in the series, good for you. But if you see that theme, perhaps you can cite some specific evidence that supports your  opinion.

It should be obvious that Tezuka'San was working to his own plan
And that he could choose his projects and do whatever he wanted.... It is obvious he planned to fuse these elements. Look at the stories he chose to animate. But trying to tell someone who has no knowledge about apocalyptic metaphor,

[definitions went here]

about the works of a master of Heavenly mysteries like Sensei Tezuka'San is impossible. Like trying to read the walls of Egypt without the Rosetta stone..... It is secret.... Intended for the initiated.
Not the casual observer.... Not the adversaries of heaven.
Like a redneck invading the Xaolin temple. Or a Philistine wannabe reading Genesis. The message and metaphor are secret.[/b]


Beyond this, you lost me. I do not want to plow through your dictionary definitions, just use the words you want, & if I need to I will access the Oxford Online Dictionary. I am well aware of the meaning of 'metephor' and 'apocalyptic'. Your posting is really an eyesore.

But, let me now address your statement thus far: Tezuka-San was commissioned by the Vatican to make that cartoon. Just read it. It is right there on that page. You infer that he chose this project to make a religious statement, but you provide no evidence to support that assertion. I think it was simply good business practice to try to find new markets for his talents. However, I have no more evidence for this assertion than you do for yours. Yet, he was a businessman, but not a religious fanatic as you seem to be. Therefore, my assertion is based upon some facts, while yours is based on no such facts. You speak of what should be obvious, and by obvious, you must refer to facts upon which that conclusion is based, but you fail to cite these. Furthermore, I can see by you abuse of the ellipsis that you really lack in writing skills. You should not use an ellipsis in the middle of your own words, but only when you are quoting a source, and excluding content from the middle of it. Any redneck can use a dictionary, but can that redneck argue coherently? You seem bent upon making the same points, regardless of what you seem to be critiquing.

But getting back to my point: You quoted my words, but then failed to address anything I said. This is the hallmark of dogmatism. You simply cannot deal with the fact that I have successfully refuted your assertions. You rely on the one thing that you think you know, to the total exclusion of all else. You cannot argue against the points I have made, so you argue something completely different. I can look at my response to your first assertion, and see clearly that I address that issue. I take the opposite side, but I am dealing with the same subject. That is coherent thought.


cybotron
Posted: Mar 4 2004, 05:02 AM
Atom was resurrected.

jeffbert
Posted: Mar 4 2004, 02:30 PM
He was not resurrected.

Guest
Posted: Mar 4 2004, 03:05 PM
You [I assume] then fail to address my assertion, but rather point out that he has a soul.

cybotron
Posted: Mar 4 2004, 03:09 PM
"Do you feel Astro is more like the hapless "AI" robot? From the kubrik film?"

jeffbert
Posted: Mar 4 2004, 03:27 PM
I address Guest's assertion, bringing up that the kokoro is not unique to Atom, and that it has nothing to do with resurrection.

cybotron
Posted: Mar 4 2004, 07:25 PM
You then deviate from my last posting, that you even quoted, in which I again assert that resurrection had nothing to do with it. And because I mentioned Frankenstein, you lost track of the subject, Atom and resurrection, and went elsewhere with your drivel. Again, you completely failed to address my point, but rather attacked some of the terms I used to make it. Whether or not Frankenstein has the mind of a murderer,* has nothing to do with Atom being resurrected or having a soul. Whether or not there is resurrection in the Buddha, has nothing to do with Atom's memories, real or implanted.

[Astro's]  memories are not false. He visits his old home and makes a penetration like a true Lama. He remembers his old toys.


It is true that he does remember scenes in which he actually did participate, Temna is standing over him as he enjoys a ride on a kiddy swing. However, I can cite a scene in which he looks into a reflective window, but sees Tobio looking back. Moreover, the scene that you cite here is an implanted memory. Just look at the part where he remembers drawing a picture. That is the human in that scene. Look at the scene in which he visits the old house. He sees a picture of Tobio, remembers implanted memories.

jeffbert
Posted: Mar 4 2004, 11:43 PM
I address the Biblical definition of 'Spirit'.

cybotron
Posted: Mar 5 2004, 01:05 AM
You seem to find some distinction between the biblical definition of 'spirit' and 'ghost'. There is no such distinction. You are so adept with a dictionary, yet, here you use none.

We both go off on different subjects for awhile, usually because they are funny. But then you returned to the point you first made, or that you assert that was your original point. However, there is little in common between

cybotron
Posted: Mar 15 2004, 06:42 AM

I do believe that this was my original point... That there were obvious Apocalyptic elements in Astroboy, and hidden messages that could only be seen by the initiated... Fused elements of the Buddha and Christ, East and West....


and

cybotron
Posted: Mar 4 2004, 05:02 AM
Astro is not "Pinocchio".... We need to understand this. Astro is a resurrected being like Christ or Genesa. The creator of Astro's Good is also the creator of The Atlas evil, and is therefore an analog of God. Clearly. "Pinocchio" has never lived, and was a piece of wood draped wit a garment from the start. Astro has recurring memories of his former life….


You simply cannot handle being wrong. If I say Atom's Eyes were brown, you try to take the opposite position, but you seem only capable of changing the subject, and would likely say that his boots were red, which may be thrue, but is irrelevant.

*NOTES:
  • My reference to the Frankenstein film had only to do with the laboratory scene in which the monster comes to life. There are high-voltage arcs, rising into the air, Sparks flying and other sights and sounds that were also featured in Atomu's activation scenes, whether in the 60s, 80s, or present series.
  • However, there are other points:
    • I read the novel, I know that the poor creature was rejected because its creator thought it was ugly. As I recall, Atomu was rejected by Tenma for reasons that differed from one series to another. While the reasons were different, the rejection was the same. The creator was for some reason unsatisfied with his creation. Wheter the creation was Atomu or Frankenstein's monster, rejection is a common atheme.
    • Both Atom and the monster only wanted companionship and love.
    • But, being denied these, they wondered for what purpose they were created. The differences are that only one sought revenge upon its creator. Atom is cute, the monster is ugly.
    But you would not know that, because you know only one thing, and that is religion. You therefore see religious themes and meanings in everything.

If this seems a nasty response, recall that you first used the term 'redneck', not I. :D
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Postby cybotron » 21 years ago

:D :D :D I have not had this lively a debate in years.... I have not bespoken "Religion".... I have bespoken the powers that are inherent in the masters of Dharma. The plan and execution of the anime is Tezuka'Sans..... I was not referring to you as a redneck. Astroboy is an iconographic device for the education and thought molding of Japanese children, that they may be taught right from wrong. It contains elements of the Divine classical. The stories of heaven. The Vatican must have detected the talent of Tezuka'San and to have seen his use of even their own elements of faith, or they would never had paid him for art work teaching their own view of GOD to their children. The Vatican teaches resurrection dude. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Is Michaelangelo an atheist? Do you go to an atheist and say teach my children God?
And stop with the petty diatribe about grammatical errors in my syntax.
You are wrong about the motives of Tezuka'San... Period.
Your argument is illogical.
Frankenstein has the mind of a murderer, and the spirit of a ghoul, a man made monster.... The awakening of astro is as the awakening of a Buddha. From life to life Rebirth. And Astro has the mind of a nine year old child, and the spirit of a guardian angel...
The Vatican looked at Tezuka'Sans work... Saw where he was coming from.... Loved his God given talent.... And said use him to do the work.. He is trustworthy... Let him use his methodology... Therefore your argument is null on all counts dude....
But even as Jesus,(ie. Isa, Om etc.) God of the Vatican stated.... Unless you are born again,(ie. Reborn, from above) you cannot see the kingdom of heaven or it's workings. And still.... I have not endorsed any "Religion".
:D :D :D :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :p h34r: :p h34r: :p h34r:
This is the higher form of Jujitsu. Spirit wrestling. Your rage betrays you.
You fall over your own dark words. You throw yourself down beneath Dharma and truth, raging. In blind anger....
What you are looking at is the building of the "Rainbow Bridge of the Isanagi and Isanami" the bridging of the gulf between east and west by a master of Dharma... A spirit warrior.... A NINJA. After WW2. It is Tezuka'San that is seen by the believing people to be building the bridge over the abyss of hatred and ignorance that caused war between the children of Japan and America.... Tell us of Light. In the age of, "the only good Jap, is a dead Jap"... Tezuka'San using the magic power of Dharma and the Love of enemies taught by the Master Isa, came to us with Astro and projected all Anime which we are awash in. God is Love....
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Postby jeffbert » 21 years ago

I have not had this lively a debate in years.... I have not bespoken "Religion".... I have bespoken the powers that are inherent in the masters of Dharma.


Dharma as you use it here is a religous term. You have contradicted yourself.

The Vatican teaches resurrection dude.


I defy you to show me where I asserted otherwise. ;)

Through the Italian National Broadcasting Network, Tezuka Osamu received an ardent request from the Vatican to make the Bible into animated form. This request was probably made to see how the Bible would be depicted by the non-Christian Tezuka Osamu.


Does this say that the Vatican actually used this cartoon, or that it merely comissioned Tezuka to make it? The last sentence speculates about the motive. I suspect that if the cartoon had actually been used, this page would so indicate. In the absence of that statement, you take the liberty to assume that it it was so used.

You are wrong about the motives of Tezuka'San... Period.


You have still neglected to provide any evidence supporting this claim. :wacko:

Your argument is illogical.


Perhaps you will show me why.

Frankenstein has the mind of a murderer, and the spirit of a ghoul, a man made monster....


Never mind that I who actually read the novel, and cited specifics therefrom, have already shown why he who started as innocent as any child, became thus.

The awakening of astro is as the awakening of a Buddha. From life to life Rebirth. And Astro has the mind of a nine year old child, and the spirit of a guardian angel


Please, the first sentence is clearly your own opinion, for which you provide scant evidence. The second sentence says nothing to which I take an opposing view.

The problem, as I see it, is that although you may know Eastern and Western religious philosophy, you do not have much success conveying that knowledge to others. This is not unusual, I have had instructors who knew the material, but did not know how to teach others that material.

So, please try to explain why Atom's " awakening" is "as the awakening of a Buddha."
Remember, even though I am studying Buddhism this week, a week can hardly suffice to expound upon a subject as well as you seem to know it. Moreover, there are others who might like to know. Most of your statements seem aimed at those who have deeper knowledge than either I or other forum regulars can be assumed to possess. Making one point with such clarity would be better than making dozens without it. :lol:
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Postby Loüßëãr » 21 years ago

:o :blink: :blink: :blink: :wacko: :wacko: :unsure: :unsure:
Well All I can say is.......DEEP MAN.....SO VERY DEEP.......
*Loüßëãr does best hippy impersonation she can :P ;) *
Too deep for me...I just like to watch the show 'cause its a great show.....if theres a hidden meaning there, maybe it should stay hidden till the viewer finds it for themselves ;) :D :P I think the real story behind AStroboy is to show how different "races" (im including robots as a race here) CAN interact without conflict. Thats wat I get from it anyway......If i've missed the point....sorry....but to me thats how Astro is being used, as a model on peaceful interactions between EVERYONE.
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Postby jeffbert » 21 years ago

I agree that that is one point to the Atom manga and anime. It is clearly evident in quite a few stories, the slave class only want equality, not preference, but the master class insists that the other exists only to serve the masters.
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Postby cybotron » 21 years ago

Originally posted by Loüßëãr@Mar 17 2004, 01:02 PM
:o  :blink:  :blink:  :blink:  :wacko:  :wacko:  :unsure:  :unsure:
Well All I can say is.......DEEP MAN.....SO VERY DEEP.......
*Loüßëãr does best hippy impersonation she can :P  ;) *
Too deep for me...I just like to watch the show 'cause its a great show.....if theres a hidden meaning there, maybe it should stay hidden till the viewer finds it for themselves ;)  :D  :P  I think the real story behind AStroboy is to show how different "races" (im including robots as a race here) CAN interact without conflict. Thats wat I get from it anyway......If i've missed the point....sorry....but to me thats how Astro is being used, as a model on peaceful interactions between EVERYONE.

I did not want to be the first to say that... Yes that's right... WW2 was a race war. Episode#5 does deal with insane terrorist racism.
The core question in Ninjitsu is.... "What will you fight for"?
Dharma or Adharma.... And no... Dharma is not a religous term... You can have all the religion in the world, and have not an atom's weight of Dharma or righteousness. See Jim Jones, Torquemada, etc.
But the racial terrorism being spoken of in the Astroboy universe is against heavenly creatures. The Reborn... The Bodhisattva.... The Elohim.
The Elohim Jesus is to be killed at birth by order of the King Herod. This is not unique. Katari is willing to destroy MIMI and her Grandfather and all Rainbow valley in order that he can destroy Astro and Denkou and all such Orphans or slaves or Robots. This level of evil is unfortunately quite real. The Chinese and Khmer communists initiated a scheme where every reborn "Heavenly" entity was to be killed.... :cry: :cry: :cry: :p h34r: :p h34r: :p h34r: :p h34r:
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jeffbert
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Postby jeffbert » 21 years ago

And no... Dharma is not a religous term


Since you are so handy with a dictionary, perhaps you would care to define it for us. Defining one's terms is the first part to engaging in any meaniful debate. B)

Why not simply define it as you use it. That way you can skip the dictionary. :lol:

I have a take-home midterm to complete, so I will be quite busy between now and Sunday. But this is it, mine friends, my final semester. I will soon earn my BA in Humanities. I am thinking about an MA in either Liberal Arts or Philosophy, but thinking is still the key word. :) I use this plain smiley because he is so lonely. People prefer the :lol: , :D , :P , or :wahah: .
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Postby DrFrag » 21 years ago

I don't know whether to speak up or just stay out of this... :unsure:

I can see where you're both coming from, even if neither of you can. Just take my word on this: you're not enemies. Let's all chill out and watch some Astroboy! :) B)

Too deep for me...I just like to watch the show 'cause its a great show.....if theres a hidden meaning there, maybe it should stay hidden till the viewer finds it for themselves


Well said Loüßëãr! :D
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