Astro is NOT related to Pinocchio

[jeffbert]

Metro city has as it's power core a spider dynamo? That's Koranic. That's Proverbs.
"...The spider taketh hold with her hands, and is in kings' palaces...." proverbs 30:28

There are many more references to spiders in the world's literature, if you care to find them. Siezing upon such accidental similarities as this shows your lack of magination. You seem unable to synthesize new things from your base of knowledge.

The spider is the city's electric power core. It acts as a hub, using its legs (there are 8 on a spider, but only 6 here) as spokes of a wheel, through which power is distributed to various locations. It was made a robotic spider because that would be more interesting than some other form. Because it would be animated in the later part of the episode, an electrical distribution hub that could also act as a giant spider seemed the better choice rather than something that in itself was not associated with a creature than some feared.

I will not comment upon the chain of historical events, because its just too feeble. Anybody can string together unrelated things, claiming by force of words alone, that they are related.

After such an attack upon your argument, I know what you are going to say, so I will say it for you: "Well, I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition".

[DrFrag]

NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!

[cybotron]

Originally posted by DrFrag@May 17 2004, 11:49 AM
[b]NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!

[/b]

I Did....
Grasp the Future.
The Bishop of Darkness.

When Cyber Ninja finally overcomes the forces of the Bishop of darkness.
He demands that his soul and his honor be returned to him.The Bishop of Darkness informs him that his soul had been used to build the very fortress of darkness that he was fighting against. The Japanese Soldier post war wanting the warm glow of Samurai honor that was wasted in vain glory and atrocity. The Hitler youth that actually believed the tales of teutonic knights and heraldic duty only to find the shame of Aushwitz upon his soul. The Marine lance corporal that was spat upon and cast down as he returned from Viet Nam only to find that the girl of his dreams was pregnant with the child of Charles Manson, and that his soul had been used to build a fortress of darkness to house the joy and glory of the Thugs and pimps...

Amitabha... I am become enlightened. I am no longer Ronin... I am become Ninja. I am become Menes Destroyer of worlds howling my tears into the clouds.... Love conquers all. I am clean escaped into cartoon land. In the latter days you shall consider it perfectly.
B) :wahah:
And they said "How dare you believe in light" "How dare you trust in hope" "How dare you mention these things that we do not"
And I answer "Hey... You got to have some fun."
And some Ice cream anyway...

Cyber Ninja Dismissed h34r: h34r:

[fafner]

Well, Cybotron will always be Cybotron, even when he/she posts anonymously we recognize him/her

Let me have some (argumented) comparisons between Pinocchio and Astro

First Pinocchio was born as an artificial being from the beginning, with no memory of a previous life, evolving towards an entire human (or child) at the end of the story by learning life. Astro at the beginning was a child, but unfortunately he died tragically His father recreated him in the hope that the robot would be his son resurrected. At least in the 2000s, Astro was born with (lost) memories of his past, even if he couldn't remember at the beginning, those memories were there. In the 80s he's more like pinocchio from this point of view since he seems to have no memories of Tobiyo. From the evolution point of view, Astro can't evolve to an entire human, at least physically, because the very reason why he's a robot is because he can't be a human anymore. He can only become human in spirit ( what he does very well for me ).

Now the second point, I think more fundamental, about free will. Pinocchio had a total free will, that is he was able to do bad things as well as good things. On the other hand, Astro *can't* do bad things. In the 80s, Atlas is equipped with the so-called omega factor, that gives him the ability to do bad things. Whether this omega factor forces him to be bad, or merely gives him the ability is not clear, but that means that Astro, not being equipped with it, can't do bad things. Astro doesn't have a *total* free will. He's bound to be a "good guy", he has no choice. Because of that he simply can't evolve, he has reached his goal since the end of the firsts episodes (not a bad goal, but he has reached it from the beginning).

My conclusion is that, although both Pinocchio and Astro are artificial, Pinocchio is like a child learning life through difficult lessons, whereas Astro is, like Cybotron would love to tell us, a kind of angel bound to protect people, a guardian angel.

Wow, that's the biggest post I've ever made !

[jeffbert]

I would say this regarding free will:

While it is true that Atom cannot choose to do evil, it is also true that a child who has learned his lesson will forget any desire to do whatever naughty thing resulted in his having his buns warmed x number of times. Billy will not even consider dunking Suzie's pigtails in his inkwell, because he knows what will happen to his bottom if he actually does dunk them. That thought no longer cycles through his consciousness; hence, he is no longer tempted thereby. Yet, we would not say that the child lacks free will. Likewise, except under extreme circumstances, a cute little bunny has no desire to eat flesh. But within the sphere of things that it by nature would do, it choses those most important at the time.

Atom's very nature is physically similar to little boys; however, his psychic nature is very different. Is he unable to do naughty things? The 80s anime has him gambling (the one about the broken dam and the grandpa/locomotive computer), sneaking away from the group with Alvin (The Lying Robot), defying authority (Robot Vikings, Robot Land, Lilly on Pelligro Island). So, he can be a naughty little robot boy; Yet, it is not within his nature to do anything malicious.

He does have free will to do those things that are consistant with his nature. In one of the manga, he actually turned against humans. But this resulted from a change in his programming, and hence, his nature.

[fafner]

Is he unable to do naughty things? The 80s anime has him gambling (the one about the broken dam and the grandpa/locomotive computer), sneaking away from the group with Alvin (The Lying Robot), defying authority (Robot Vikings, Robot Land, Lilly on Pelligro Island)

Unfortunately, I have not seen the ones with a broken dam nor the grandpa/locomotive computer, and Lilly on Pelligro Island doesn't tell me nothing
But in the Robot Vikings, he actually have to manage 2 contradictory positions:
1) Do what he actually does, that is defying authority and try to do something about those bad robots.
2) Accept authority, do nothing, but feeling culprit for letting this situation as it is whereas he may do something.
Robot Land shows a similar situation, instead of stopping bad guys, he has to save victims (and moreover he embarass Dr Elefun ).

I can't tell in the other episodes since I have not seen them, but in those 2 cases, Astro had to choose between 2 incompatible ways, each one having good and bad consequences.

Astro shows he can make decisions, he does have a free will, but in an oriented way. Astro would never had even consider a 3rd choice: joining the bad guys in Robot Vikings, nor joining the evil robots whose I have forgotten the name. Of course this would be very unlikely as it would be a dramatic change towards his past, but when he made for the first time such a choice, in the first episode, there was no doubt for him, even at this time he could not have consider another option.

Well, I'm not against free will for robots, but because he is not equipped with the omega factor, I still see Astro like robots in Asimov universe, who are bound to the Three Laws of Robotic:
1) A robot shall not hurt a human.
2) A robot shall always prevent a human from being hurt unless it contradicts rule 1.
3) A robot shall protect its integrity unless it contradicts rule 1 or 2.
(I have never see them in English though, so maybe they are not accurate)
Astro has always followed rule 1 and 2, in this order, however unlike robots in Asimov universe, he had the chance to never have a conflict between them
However I have never seen him respecting rule 3 with great care, he always put himself in bad situations
These rules, although not forbidding free will, put some limits to it.

Well, not bad beating my record twice in less than 2 hours

[DrFrag]

I like the way you think, Fafner. B)

Regarding Lilly On Pelligro Island, he leaves the country without permission. More than once, too. Something totally illegal for robots and it carries a death sentence.
But you can see he really wrestles with it. He knows it's wrong, but he knows that if he leaves he can help people. In the end he decides he can be back by morning and no one need ever know.
I think this bending of the rules is quite amazing in a robot. Life is full of grey areas, and robots work in black and white. In fact, when his parents ask where he goes at night, he lies and tells them "nowhere". He is forced to weigh up between telling the truth (resulting in the death of himself and the victims of Pelligro), or lying for "a greater good". What a mind bender! :wacko:

[jeffbert]

To that Doctor, I must add this thought. A robot's 'mental' representation of rules makes no distinction between mala in se and mala prohibita. Respectively, these are that which is wrong regardless of what the written law states, and that which is wrong only because the codified law states that it is. Example:

When driving your car, you are to stop at the stop signs and red lights. If, however, your wife is about to deliver your child on the front seat, you might be justified in only slowing enough to check for traffic on the crossroads before entering the intersection. this is mala prohibita. The Robot laws are this type. On the other hand, at least as far as some philosophies are concerned, there are acts that can never be justified. These are mala in se.

Of course, this argument about the machine's inability to distinguish between these being applicable to Atom is an assumption on my part.

Regardless of that, Atom obviously did consider both the evil that was and would continue in the absence of his actions, and the good that he might bring by those actions. However, lying to mama-san implies a lack of trust. Ooops, forgot about The Greatest Robot on Earth! In the 80s, Pluto abducts Uranium, and holds her hostage. Atom goes to rescue her, but escapes a fight by the intervention of another robot. Then, Dr. E. goes to plead with whathischops, only to be captuered and held for the ransom of Atom fighting Pluto. Here is the distinction that Atom fails to make: Uranium was his'sister,' but still only a robot. Dr. E was a human, and robots exist to help humans. He unhesitatingly went to rescue both, without regard for that distinction.

However, in The Red Cat, he battled helpless animals (birds, mainly) to help humans. He made no distinction between human and animal when saving animals in varions episodes including Baby Elephant Pook & Crystal in the desert, and even fought against humans and for animals in Baby Elephant Pook.

Hence, rules are rules to a robot, it makes no distinction between them. If it can find reason to violate any rule, it should likewise be able to do so in regards to any other rule.

[cybotron]

It is the insistance that Astro is only a machine mimicking a human mind that throws your argument in a tailspin. The human heart is torn between good and evil. A machine can make no such distinction. Astro is an agent of the state working with the police and armed forces of Metro City. No state exists without detractors. Even a benevolent state such as The United States has anarchistic elements even at high academic and intellectual levels that consider the State "EVIL." And those that support and defend the state as "Evil." Evil that must be destroyed. Therefore Astro would appear as the ultimate evil daemonic monster to them. A Robot killing machine with the face and voice of a child upholding a capitalist racist elitist "Cyber State." The analog is the "David deathbot" from "Screamers..." What a horror. A monstrous evil concept that must be destroyed! :wahah:

Again you seek to make dead what cannot die towit Astro's heart.
This unreasoning agnosticism clouds your analysis. Astro was dead and is alive again. He has a ghost. "Screamers?" Come on... Give me a break!