Astro is NOT related to Pinocchio

Talk about all things Astro Boy!
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jeffbert
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Postby jeffbert » 21 years ago

"Screamers?" Come on... Give me a break!


It was you, Cybotron, who first mentioned Screamers in this thread. Even in the Robot issues in sci-fi thread, I did not bring it into consideration, my reference to that film was one that asked for clarification from the one who did mention it.


It is the insistance that Astro is only a machine mimicking a human mind that throws your argument in a tailspin. The human heart is torn between good and evil. A machine can make no such distinction.

I really do not know with what of my or anyone's statement you take issue here. I made no assertions contrary to anything you state. You usually use quotes of the statement you wish to challenge, but not here. Ok, so the first sentence might be taking issue with what was implied by my own statements, that I would agree it is true that I believe an artificial (man-made) intelligence must by virtue of its being a product of man's imagination and design mimic the processes of the human mind or brain. That is inherent in the very term artificial intelligence. The second sentence appears again to challenge an assertion of mine. However, in regards to a machine's ability to distinguish between good and evil, I said nothing. I did say that it cannot distinguish between evil that is evil because the law makes it so, and that which is evil in and of itself. Reread the first few paragraphs of my last post. B)
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cybotron
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Postby cybotron » 21 years ago

When did I mention screamers? I get confused... I was reading the robot issues post and this one and they sort of melded in my mind... Sorry. My point is that when you speak of good and evil, these are relative concepts that must be transcended. Take Moses for example. What he did may have been "Good" to the Israelite slaves... But it was pure "Evil" to the Egyptians. Again, the stopping of Armageddon and the Apocalypse are popular themes in film and books. But strickly speaking, Armageddon is the overthrow of the Satanic kingdom power. So if one is against Armageddon he must be for the continuation of the Satanic kingdom. Astro is an instrument of "The State."
Maintaining the status quo of the State against it's enemies and radical change. The State is a "Cyber State." There are no questions concerning Eugenics or thought control raised. Whatever Astro does is accepted as "Good." Astro is not a true artificial intelligence. He has what no Robot is supposed to have... Free will. And judgement of Good and evil. Even "Gort" the allmighty police bot from "Day the Earth stood still" did not possess this. Gort merely reacted to aggression.
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Astroboy is not an "AI".....
It is the essence or heart of a child in a robotic housing. More Cyborg than robot. More "Robotoid" than Robot. :wahah:Image
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Postby DrFrag » 21 years ago

Originally posted by cybotron@May 19 2004, 12:10 PM
Even a benevolent state such as The United States has anarchistic elements even at high academic and intellectual levels that consider the State "EVIL." And those that support and defend the state as "Evil." Evil that must be destroyed. Therefore Astro would appear as the ultimate evil daemonic monster to them.

I think this is poor reasoning. Take this list of US atrocities from the movie Bowling For Columbine:

1953: US overthrows Prime Minister Mossadeq of Iran. US installs Shah as dictator.
1954: US overthrows democratically-elected President Arbenz of Guatemala. 200,000 civilians killed.
1963: US back assassination of South Vietnamese President Diem.
1963-1975: American military kills 4 million people in Southeast Asia.
September 11, 1973: US stages coup in Chile. Democratically-elected President Salvador Allende assassinated. Dictator Augusto Pinochet installed. 5,000 Chileans murdered.
1977: US backs military rulers of El Salvador. 70,000 Salvadorans and four American nuns killed.
1980's: US trains Osama bin Laden and fellow terrorists to kill Soviets. CIA gives them $3 billion.
1981: Reagan administration trains and funds "contras." 30,000 Nicaraguans die.
1982: US provides billions in aid to Saddam Hussein for weapons to kill Iranians.
1983: White House secretly gives Iran weapons to kill Iraqis.
1989: CIA agent Manuel Noriega (also serving as President of Panama) disobeys orders from Washington. US invades Panama and removes Noriega. 3,000 Panamanian civilian casualties.
1990: Iraq invades Kuwait with weapons from US.
1991: US enters Iraq. Bush reinstates dictator of Kuwait.
1998: Clinton bombs "weapons factory" in Sudan. Factory turns out to be making aspirin.
1991 to present: American planes bomb Iraq on a weekly basis. UN estimates 500,000 Iraqi children die from bombing and sanctions.
2000-01: US gives Taliban-rules Afghanistan $245 million in "aid."
Sept 11, 2001: Osama bin Laden uses his expert CIA training to murder 3,000 people.

If I think the USA has done evil things, does that mean I think Astroboy is evil?

Jeffbert, speaking of The Greatest Robot on Earth, doesn't it seem strange that Bruton/Pluto destroyed so many robots without the Omega Factor? Frankenstein is another one. Weird!
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cybotron
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Postby cybotron » 21 years ago

Originally posted by DrFrag+May 19 2004, 05:40 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (DrFrag @ May 19 2004, 05:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--cybotron@May 19 2004, 12:10 PM
Even a benevolent state such as The United States has anarchistic elements even at high academic and intellectual levels that consider the State "EVIL." And those that support and defend the state as "Evil." Evil that must be destroyed. Therefore Astro would appear as the ultimate evil daemonic monster to them.

I think this is poor reasoning. Take this list of US atrocities from the movie Bowling For Columbine:

1953: US overthrows Prime Minister Mossadeq of Iran.  US installs Shah as dictator.
1954: US overthrows democratically-elected President Arbenz of Guatemala.  200,000 civilians killed.
1963: US back assassination of South Vietnamese President Diem.
1963-1975: American military kills 4 million people in Southeast Asia.
September 11, 1973: US stages coup in Chile.  Democratically-elected President Salvador Allende assassinated.  Dictator Augusto Pinochet installed.  5,000 Chileans murdered.
1977: US backs military rulers of El Salvador.  70,000 Salvadorans and four American nuns killed.
1980's: US trains Osama bin Laden and fellow terrorists to kill Soviets.  CIA gives them $3 billion.
1981: Reagan administration trains and funds "contras."  30,000 Nicaraguans die.
1982: US provides billions in aid to Saddam Hussein for weapons to kill Iranians.
1983: White House secretly gives Iran weapons to kill Iraqis.
1989: CIA agent Manuel Noriega (also serving as President of Panama) disobeys orders from Washington.  US invades Panama and removes Noriega.  3,000 Panamanian civilian casualties.
1990: Iraq invades Kuwait with weapons from US.
1991: US enters Iraq.  Bush reinstates dictator of Kuwait.
1998: Clinton bombs "weapons factory" in Sudan. Factory turns out to be making aspirin.
1991 to present: American planes bomb Iraq on a weekly basis.  UN estimates 500,000 Iraqi children die from bombing and sanctions.
2000-01: US gives Taliban-rules Afghanistan $245 million in "aid."
Sept 11, 2001: Osama bin Laden uses his expert CIA training to murder 3,000 people.

If I think the USA has done evil things, does that mean I think Astroboy is evil?

Jeffbert, speaking of The Greatest Robot on Earth, doesn't it seem strange that Bruton/Pluto destroyed so many robots without the Omega Factor? Frankenstein is another one. Weird![/b][/quote]
It still does'nt equal the Gulag Archaepelego....
Or Stalins non aggression pact with nazi germany...
Or Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge deurbanization....
Or the Koffe Anan U.N. sponsored Rwandan Genocide....
But what the hey? I digress. The question was robotic determination of what constitutes good and evil. Imagine Astroboy supporting the Nazi state sanctioned Nurumberg Laws... Or even Aparthied.... Or Negro Slavery.
Or marxist collectivism...
Just because a thing is legal and sanctioned by the academia of the State, does not make it good, or moral, or non-evil. So determination of what is good or evil cannot be linked to the law of the state or man even. Gort simply destroyed the aggressor. Astro has the power to kill and destroy yet Tawashi the head police authority says at the end....
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Astro is a little boy. The madness of political murder... racism.... and religious bigotry is unknown to him. Artificial Love? What is good? What is it's measure that it can be programmed into the world. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you used to be what they taught in kindergarden, but now that would be state sponsored religion and an abomination to the politically correct. And so the thugs and pimps and the Columbine mindset hold illimitable sway over all. But it is the world at the millennium.... The war has begun between men that would kill their own sister for fornication Vs western thought as a whole, and I am clean escaped into cartoon land till and that I die and see no more of the insane hypocrisy and madness of this age. :lol:
This world was evil... The world of your father was evil...
The world of your fathers father was evil...
The world to come will be evil...
But I will have Christmas to comfort my soul. :P
Here then is the perfection and spirit and wisdom and fruit of this age.....
Image The Bomb Belt on a child.
Can you feel Astro? Is there a heart? :cry:
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jeffbert
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Postby jeffbert » 21 years ago

I checked the link You might find this link very interesting... And, although I do find it quite interesting, I do not believe that such a link is appropriate in a family-friendly forum. Please edit your post and remove the link. I speak only for myself, so bear that in mind. :D
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jeffbert
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Postby jeffbert » 21 years ago

Skunk was one who regarded robots as mere tools to be used and discarded when no longer useful. He is among the majority of Westerners who because they believe that humans possess imortal souls, robots, no matter how intelligent, no matter what human-like behavior they might have, are still soulless machines, and unworthy of human rights.

A bomb on a child. Unless I am mistaken Saddam used children as expendable minefield clearers in the first Gulf war. I read some rather sad and disgusting things about Josef Mengele's 'research' on twins during WWII. :cry: It should not surpise anyone that a childlike robot should be treated thus.


Now, to try & get back on topic:

I was speaking about a machine's inability to distinguish between rules that are local customs and rules that are universal, mala in se vs. mala prohibita. Although I suppose that anything can be programmed into a computer. My whole discussion relies upon an assumption that may itself be unfair.

A newborn child is completely helpless, Atom and Uranium entered the word, and within mere minutes were out running around having fun and adventures. Atom, however, was equipped with weapons (which ones are dependant upon which incarnation), and was therefore, leathal at birth. Yet, his mistakes as depicted in the 80s series, were limited to innocent misuse of his physical strength, in breaking the leg from the chair and breaking the window. I believe the was a bird outside, to which Tenma pointed, saying 'bird'. Atom could have vaporized the bird if not for his programming that prevented such innocent mistakes.

Therefore, I assert that there was such programming, whose purpose was to prevent any such innocent acts of destruction. Would it have been fair to burden a child with such rules intruding upon his stream of consciousness? I say, 'no'. The rules would have been subconscious, so that they did not overburden Atom's thought processes. He would not intend to vaporize the bird, so why should we make him think about it? I should probably elaborate, but tough. I am moving on.

These rules existed in his programming to protect humans, as though Asimov's 3 laws were inherent in robots. In other words, when creating a robot, it will by virtue of its being a robot, be equipped with these rules. Only with the Omega Factor™, could Atlas circumvent a robot's inherent subservance to humans. I assume that any rules of the mala prohibita species would be learned by experience, while only these were programmed into him from the start. Nevertheless, in a machine's representation of rules, can it treat those it learns by experience as any less matters of black & white, 1 & 0, 'yes' & 'no', than those inherent rules?

Robot Law:

Thou mayest not leavest thine country withoutest permission from the government, amen.

How would there be any exceptions allowed?

If(good_enough_reason()) then I_may_violate_this_rule;

good_enough_reason(reason) // This function determines if a reason is good enough to allow violation of a rule that otherwise has no gray areas

Sorry for the 'C' code, perhaps I should have used pseudocode.

For that exception to exist, it must have been there from the start. Thus, the robot's abilty to acquire new rules, must allow for exceptions to these new rules. Perhaps my programming knowledge complicates my analysis, but tough. Ithink I just defeated my earlier argument. For a robot or human to function, it must be able to acquire new rules and abide by them.However, there must be exceptions to some rules, but which ones?

When a guy you really loathe comes up and greets you, you would like to say, "get lost, #%%#", but instead, you wanting to make the encounter go smooth, say "good to see you, again, you %$$@#." Lying is a gray area, that both Asimov's robot (in one story) and Atom used to spare the person's feelings. Hence, Atom was able to deal with gray areas, while True was not. To True, if lying to spare the girl's feelings was ok, then so was making false reports about earthquakes. :D :P :D :P Nevermind that the girl had been blind for some time and for that same time, True had been lying, before Atom and classmates came to visit :D :P :D :P .

So, anyway, Atom's AI was far superior to True's because Atom could deal with gray of fuzzy areas, while True could not. So, notwithstanding that ones and zeroes represent all data to a computer, and hence, a robot, some robots can indeed distinguish between mala in se and mala prohibita. :wahah:
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Postby fafner » 21 years ago

If i understand well, "mala prohibita" is bad behaviour according to law, and "mala in se" is bad behaviour by itself, bad behaviour that can't be justified. Mind if I blur these concepts? ;)

I am reading a book where the galaxy is invaded by an extra-galactic specie. This specie is totally unknown, very aggressive and totally mercyless. After A few years, a "stable situation" occurs: a vast majority of lost worlds for the natives of the galaxy, probably in a permanent way, both armies about the same strength, but a massive offensive from the aggressors is feared. However, some scientists from the natives created a biological weapon very effective against the aggressor, that could kill them all in a matter of weeks, and totally ineffective against the natives. Let's put aside the risk of a backfire, a mutation that would cause the biological weapon to be able to kill both aggressors and natives, as it was stated as a "minor risk" by the scientists themselves.
There are now 2 choices:
1) Unleash the weapon, technically commiting a genocide.
2) Don't use the weapon.
Commiting a genocide, in my opinion at least, is among the worst abominations, so solution 1 should be put into "male in se" category. However, letting the situation as it is could lead to defeat, effectively causing the death of billions of people, and destruction of whole worlds. That could be considered also as a genocide, a passive one. So option 2 is also "male in se". As the 2 options are exactly opposite, could it be that the opposite of "male in se" be "male in se"?
So "male in se" seems to depend on situations anyway.

Now, let's sadistically put the poor Astro in charge of the decision.
Not being equipped with the omega factor, he is forced to protect his human friends, so he has no choice other than to unleash the biological weapon. However, he also knows that he will cause the death of billions of beings in the other side, these beings are not only composed of vast armies, there are also civilians, families, parents, children... The weapon will make no difference. Should they all die only because their government decided to go to war? Should the native population die because another government decided to go to war?
Where is the good thing to do? Where is the "male in se"?

Oh, another thing for people thinking about negociation: the aggresors will NOT negociate, many ambassadors or diplomates died this way! :o It would be too easy :wahah: <sadistic laughter>

And for people asking, yes, I like breaking things (or at least trying to break), breaking ideas is even more funny than breaking objects :P Except maybe when I break my own ideas, I have already done that, that hurts :o have to repair all :cry:
The real sign that someone has become a fanatic is that he completely loses his sense of humor about some important facet of his life. When humor goes, it means he's lost his perspective.

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jeffbert
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Postby jeffbert » 21 years ago

fafner, I would say that mala in se itself is dependant upon the point of view of the ones considering action. For instance, there were bomber crews whose targets were so close to untouchable sites such as orphanages, that they were understanably reluctant. Their commanders reassured them that colateral damage was undesirable, but also unintended. People die in war. The war that lasts longer consumes more lives than the shorter war. Bombing the munitions factory would almost certainly destroy the orphanage and its inhabitants, yet, not bombing the factory would prolong the war, and thus also kill many civilians. Thus we have a lose-lose situation, If we spare the enemy, we might lose, this is an unacceptable outcome. If we bomb the enemy, we have a better chance to win, and since our morality is such that it values individual lives, there will be less suffering if we win. The philosophy of the greatest good to the greatest number of people results in a few being left out. However, since there will be winners and losers in any outcome, we chose the one that brings good to the greatest number (and makes us the victors, besides).

How would a robot deal with such a decision? How sould I know? "It's tattooed on the back of their necks."

Sorry for the off topic diversion, I just could not help it. :D :D
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cybotron
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Postby cybotron » 21 years ago

Wow!!!!
You guys are deep and heavy beyond belief.
I removed that link. Sorry about that. :unsure:
The b-9 Robot wanted the Robotoid destroyed because the Robotoid had free will. :wahah:
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jeffbert
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Postby jeffbert » 21 years ago

Yet, within limits so did the B9 or YM3. Thanks for removing that link.

The Robot (B9)-- hey, remember the D9 AKA Killdozer? could act on its own initiave to protect the Robinson family. BTW,

LIS SEASON 1 NOW ON DVD!!

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