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No one can comment on the works of Osamu Tezuka without being able to bring up the most difficult topics. during the late 1960's Tezuka commented many times in the Atom mangas about America's involvement in Vietnam and even sent Astro back through time to the jungles of Southeast Asia to do battle against American tanks and B-52 bombers.

I could say, as an American, some words about Tezuka's obviously overblown depictions of hundreds of bombers and hundreds of tanks trying to blow up a single small village of people or the fact that at no time in his works does he comment on Viet Cong or North Vietnamese acts of brutality, such as the massacres of civilians in Hue City in 1968 or the thousands of people left to die in prison camps or on flimsy rafts when America abandoned Saigon in 1975 or the stories of whole Vietnamese families who escaped the prison of their homeland to take the oath of citizenship in America.

But one must also take into account before making statements that Osamu Tezuka survived World War II in the most hellish environments, ever a non-conforming person who detested to his dying day the Imperial government of Japan that took his country into a hollocaust and warfare as a whole as the most sinfull activity of humanity.

No doubt Tezuka was influenced by the one sided television broadcasts of the period which painted America as the soul enemy in Vietnam. I would almost be sure that had Tezuka been made aware of the crimes of the North Vietnamese communist regime he would have lumped them into his single hatred for all warfare.

At least when he drew Atom in the "Angel of Vietnam" the character makes a line that he could care less if the two sides killed each other, just let them do it by themselves and leave the civilians alone. The whole story also showed Atom's strict coda of killing the machines of war and not the soldiers who fought in them. The story was wll concieved, well intentioned and well done.

I wonder, had he not died in 1989, what Tezuka would have thought about today's world situation. Perhaps too acid a topic to talk about further.

I never dreamed that this would be brought up here, mostly I leave people to think what they may about Nam....
The vietnam delusion is that the US somehow did wrong... All one has to do is look at cambodia and what the Khmer Rouge did to the people, and compare to Viet Nam. The US kept the Red Guard from exterminating millions, the cities of vietnam were not Deurbanized or depopulated. We took many Vietnamese back to the states and their cultural diversity was added to the US. It was time to leave... Our intention was not Genocide or conquest, or to sieze the country for our own or mass murder. But to prevent the extermination of the Vietnamese intelligentsia. As per the plan of the com-intel.
Now the Chinese comm is our trading partner. The Vietnamese have invited us back, US warships are docking in Danang and saigon has opened up the clubs and Nam is the choicest liberty port a sailor can get.
The nonsense and silly propaganda concerning Vietnam can stop now. More people died from Aids, auto wrecks, and rectal copulation than died in the vietnam war.... We did not make ourselves the enemies of the vietnamese people. Why would they want us back?
As for Osama... Osamu... Usama.... These problems with his name and spirit are just starting. Our mission in Vietnam was a success. There was no communist extermination. :wahah:
Miss Saigon is living in Hollywood. And is very happy.... She's going back to Vietnam for a visit!

Originally posted by dannavy85@Jul 9 2004, 05:22 PM
I could say, as an American, some words about Tezuka's obviously overblown depictions of hundreds of bombers and hundreds of tanks trying to blow up a single small village of people or the fact that at no time in his works does he comment on Viet Cong or North Vietnamese acts of brutality, such as the massacres of civilians in Hue City in 1968 or the thousands of people left to die in prison camps or on flimsy rafts when America abandoned Saigon in 1975 or the stories of whole Vietnamese families who escaped the prison of their homeland to take the oath of citizenship in America.

You know its people like you who make me ashamed of being a human. First of all most of the Vietcong were civillians. Second of all the American war crimes were worse. What about the napalm and agent orange? the Americans would send tanks and bombers and hundreds of troops if they even suspected the North Vietnamese or Vietcong were there.
also on topic the reason so many Vietnamese had to leave was because the Americans had destroyed their homes, farms and families.


and besides this was a resonably accurate depiction of what happend back then during the war.

I never dreamed that this would be brought up here

I could have brought up an obviously trivial subject such as the baseless charges of racism that were brought up against Tezuka a few years ago, which the Atom series clearly shows that Tezuka was perhaps the first person to confront the subject of racial hatred and civil rights before ML King.

You know its people like you who make me ashamed of being a human.

That's ok, you are entitled to your feelings. At least I can keep the facts about Vietnam right...unlike some people.

Having briefly studied the far East during the 20th Century, let me say this:

I saw video of Vietnamese waving US flags after being liberated from Japanese occupation. However, the Chinese, Ho Chi Minh's army, & the Viet Minh party somehow shared rule in the North. The British sought to rule in the South. French general Leclerc decided it was France's right to rule (Keegan, 589).When the French decided it was time to re-conquer Vietnam, the US considered its options.

1. It could support Vietnamese sovereignty in the face of French aggression, which clearly violated the Versailles Conference in which in France itself, it was decided that nations had the right to self-rule.
2. It could support France because of Vietnam's Communist Government.

After Japanese forces left other nations, they too, in the face of the devastation of war would be communist. Vietnam was rather than an isolated island nation, located upon the Asian continent. The US feared Communist expansion, and hence sided with France, whose motto was "Liberty, fraternity, equality" but not for the yellow men.

I do not know about the communist's slaughter of civilians except in Cambodia. There Pol Pot decided that agrarian lifestyle was the only thing better than death, so he massacred as many 'intellectuals' as he could find. However, in Vietnam the locals were desperate to head-off another foreign occupation, colonial rule, and life little better than slavery. They felt that anything was better than that, and resorted to extreme measures hoping to avoid it. Would there have been any such loss of civilian life in Vietnam if there had been no French invasion? I am not justifying it, just trying to understand it.

History is usually a one-sided retelling of the events. If the Vietnamese chose communism, that was their business. I think that if the US had supported the Vietnamese sovereignty, would it have been able to keep it out of either China's or the USSR's camps? Perhaps the Vietnamese would have been so grateful to have US support against French aggression, that they would have stayed out of those blocs. However, speculation and history are two different things.

"The Angel of Vietnam" did not treat either side as virtuous, but rather the the people's being caught between two warring sides, they lost either way. Jane Fonda, from what I saw on A&E's bio of the Fondas, was against war, rather than taking sides. Yes, she sat upon an antiaircraft gun, but this is a defensive weapon. It does not go out and hunt down American soldiers. She had just given birth to her first child, & was acting as a mother should. Her comment as I heard it on the bio (& I base my opinion upon it, so if it is wrong, I am not) was that they were killing families, mothers, children, etc, & that was wrong, period.

<_<

If communism was so unworkable as an economic system, it would eventually collapse under its own weight. true, its appeal was a lie. Rather than the people collectively owning the MOP (Means Of Production), the government owned it. Hence, they were suckered into supporting an oppressive regime. But for those who lived in huts made of bamboo, and had nothing to call their own, it little mattered whether they were ruled by locals of foreign powers. They were dirt poor & oppressed either way.

Keegan, John, 2nd. World War.

I haven't read that story by Tezuka, what volume is it in?

I really don't know anything about the Vietnam war, but I know that war is wrong. I think thats what Tezuka tried to say. Did Vietnam attack America? Did America ever get nuked? I think those answers are no. I could understand that Tezuka would show America as the bully and war monger. I think Tezuka just wanted to show how awful war is and make you think.

I also wonder what Tezuka would say in these days..

Theres my 5 yen.

You guy's need to stop this.....
The communism that we fought in Vietnam is dead. It had it's way in Cambodia, not Indochina. It was a murderous, merciless beast. That was all. The crap put out about Vietnam in the jaded west was nonsense... Where were they when the Red Guard put teachers into pots and cooked them and made the village people eat it or die? Where were they during the killing fields? It's over, stop the lies of american evil. If the US had abused Vietnam as the Nazis and Soviets abused people... Would the Vietnamese ask them back? B) Give it up. You may find that miss Fonda is full of manure. And that the press and media are false. You may find that the Vietnamese, Vietcong vets, Love America. The Vietnamese invaded Cambodia to stop the Communists from their madness.... Where were you at? Leave it alone. And as far as the present war... How dare you americans fight back! How dare you defy the Fatwa against all Christians, All crusaders, all americans... Whoever kills them does Allah a service and shall have 72 virgins in paradise.
Perfect brainwashing. These are the new Nazis. This war is a result of the fusion of Ignorant 17th century sword and slash Pseudoislamic Hashhishinism, and Communst revoluntionary indoctrination. The Lord of the Christians prophesied a war at the millennium, the fall of Babylon (ie. present day Iraq). Here it is. What now brown cow? The medes and persians are come up. Their goal is the extermination of all people that do not pray toward Mecca. The Us press is an abomination to them, also the bill of rights, they practice slavery, kill girls for sexcrimes. They will not stop till the Jews and the Christians are no more in charge, and the king of Mecca reigns supreme. what ya gonna do now? Run? Hide? The Japanese have sent Ninja units to Iraq. World war has begun. Gay marriage is a propaganda that inflames the muslim and aids in the recruitment of suicidal fanatics. That's why you see so much of it. The Gay population is small. Ju'Do... Use the enemies resources and own strength against him.
By showing these images, we are causing the arab and meccan world to believe our freedoms are Satanic. They can't wait to get God's reward for killing us.
There is no way to stop it. It is a wild beast that smells the blood of it's victim. The nukes are on the way... The gas....
I came here not to escape life.... But this is fantasyland :wacko: . And I'm ready.
Cyber Ninja Dageki h34r: h34r: h34r:

Originally posted by Rocketball@Jul 10 2004, 03:20 AM
I really don't know anything about the Vietnam war, but I know that war is wrong. I think thats what Tezuka tried to say. Did Vietnam attack America? Did America ever get nuked? I think those answers are no. I could understand that Tezuka would show America as the bully and war monger. I think Tezuka just wanted to show how awful war is and make you think.

War is not allways wrong.... If you are a jew freed from Aushwitz, a black freed from slavery, even Jesus wages war in Dharma... Abraham freed Lot by war.... You peace at any price hypocrits make me sick. No decent person would sit on his ass while the Nazi terror ravishes the world. War is the only way sometimes. The L.A peace press loved Manson. Just stop.
this is the fate of the Hero that slew the dragon.
This is the fate of the vets that won the war against the Red Dragon.... This is their fate at the hands of this evil and ungrateful rebellious people.
What hero did they not betray? Just stop.... Goaway... You have your satanic rockers, your pimps and thugs... Leave us to die in peace. Leave the vietnam vets alone. Go listen to Axle Rose sing Manson songs or whatever.

Originally posted by cybotron+Jul 9 2004, 03:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (cybotron @ Jul 9 2004, 03:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Rocketball@Jul 10 2004, 03:20 AM
I really don't know anything about the Vietnam war, but I know that war is wrong. I think thats what Tezuka tried to say. Did Vietnam attack America? Did America ever get nuked? I think those answers are no. I could understand that Tezuka would show America as the bully and war monger. I think Tezuka just wanted to show how awful war is and make you think.

War is not allways wrong.... If you are a jew freed from Aushwitz, a black freed from slavery, even Jesus wages war in Dharma... Abraham freed Lot by war.... You peace at any price hypocrits make me sick. No decent person would sit on his ass while the Nazi terror ravishes the world. War is the only way sometimes. The L.A peace press loved Manson. Just stop.
this is the fate of the Hero that slew the dragon.
This is the fate of the vets that won the war against the Red Dragon.... This is their fate at the hands of this evil and ungrateful rebellious people.
What hero did they not betray? Just stop.... Goaway... You have your satanic rockers, your pimps and thugs... Leave us to die in peace. Leave the vietnam vets alone. Go listen to Axle Rose sing Manson songs or whatever.[/b][/quote]
Hindsight is 20-20. Until Pearl Harbor, Americans for the most part, were content to let Europe deal with its own problems. They saw the loss of American life & limb in WWI, and had no desire to repeat it.

Before the Nazis were killing Jews, several attempts at emmigration were made. However, they were turned away from anywhere they fled, and forced to return to Europe. Nobody belived Hitler's political testiment as expressed in Mein Kampf. Few Americans cared that Jewsy were being denied employment, evicted from their homes, packed like sardines into cattle cars, and shipped to slave-labor camps. It was not our (USA's) problem. Better them, than us.

I agree that some wars- or rather participation in certain wars by certain parties is justified (note the punctuation, cybotron, when one changes the subject in mid-sentence, one ends the abandoned thought with the hyphen, not the elipsis B) ). However, as was already stated, hindsight is 20-20. If we knew that the dissolving of the USSR would result in WMDs falling into terrorists' hands, or even the possibility of it, would we have sought to end the USSR? If we further knew that it would also mean drastic cuts in military forces, from entire fleets of ships, to army divisions by the score, would we have wanted to end it? If RR knew that we would only be trading one huge and rather predictible enemy for many small & radical ones that had no fixed map coordinates, would he have pursued the same policy?

The idea that the USA is always good & right is simply absurd. The ex-Europeans conquered the whole thing, forcibly taking it from the militarily weaker and tribally fragmented inhabitants. How many Indians suffered similar fates to those whom you mourn? True, the numbers are smaller, yet, the percetage is much higher. Do not misunderstand me, I love America, I would not want to live under any other system, it is clearly the best; however, I am not blind to its bad moments in history. B)