How will he handle death?

[dannavy85]

I had a real bad nightmare last night, no kidding. Reno was killed by a crook who was outrunning the police when his car slammed through a small street side vendor outside the Science Ministry. Astro was really broken up and the last part I remember was Daichi/Atlas standing in his way trying to keep him from losing his grip on his Cocoro and going after the crook for revenge.

I mean Astro has so many human friends and unlike them he can keep on going while they grow older. How would he handle losing any one of them?

[1magus]

This is a thought that i have thought about before and first off Im sorry u had a nightmare like that it is a scarry thought my new story might have something like that in there cause u just gave me a good idea. IM not sure how he would handle it he would probaly be pretty sad.

[Danny]

THis is actually something that I think about almost every time I am mentally exploring aspects of Astro that we have never seen. Astro has been around for 50 years, but all the stories seem to take place within only a year or so AFTER Tenma boots him for not growing like a real boy.

Astro will never gow old. His parents will never grow old. His brother or sister will never grow old. EVERYONE around them will. What happens when Astro is still a 10 years old, but his life and experiences amount to decades, possibly even centuries? How does he cope with generations of people around him living, growing, dieing yet he is still just 10?

Those who have seen The Movie "The Highlander" have seen a glimpse into the life of a person who never ages and canot die. The same issue has been raised in countless vampire tales. Anne Rice is a current popular Author working with these issues in her books. The TV series "Forever Knight" also looked into the immortal aspects.

But there IS a difference between these shows and Astro. Astro will never "Grow up", but he will MATURE. Astro learns, thinks, collects experiences just as they do, but Astro is not immortal due to his physical being. Astro is made. His materials age. He takes damage that needs to be repaired. He works from power that needs to be recharged.

What happens when eventally there is no one left that knows how to "maintain" astro? WHat happens when his Power Supply becomes obsolete? How does Astro "repair" when the Alloys within him simply no longer exist?

Compare this issue to cars. There are still Cars on this planet that were built at the turn of the century, yet they are NOTHING LIKE the cars of today. These century old cars no longer "work" in a practical sense. They are museum relicks. Is that any life for Astro? No longer servicable or maintainable so he is preserved as well as he can be? Even IN this state, simply due to the fact that he IS material, they will eventually break down. How long will Astro BE in this state? hundreds of years? Thousands? Yet STILL just a 10 year old?

Think on this from another angle. What if Astro does NOT stay the same? What if, in some way, Astro is always "updated"? Think of it like "Pa's old axe". An axe has two components, a head, and a handle. The head goes blunt so you simply replace it. The Handle eventually breaks so you just get a new Handle. That new head is possibly a BETTER head. Advances in the material that Axe heads are made from have occured. So the new head is BETTER. Same goes for the handle. The new handle has increased Impact absorpsion, made of Wood that was Milled in a more advanced Mill. So "Pa's old Axe" is still "Pa's old Axe".. but there is NOTHING of its oridinal state of being left. Even the head and handle it is now are made different. its still a head, its still a handle, but its a different sort of handle, a different sort of head. so it it REALLY still "Pa's old Axe"?

Now place this into Astro's world. Astros Power supply eventually no longer holds power so they replace it. BUT.. of course they replace it with an "Improved" version. Thsi is done either by choice, so Astro has a better, longer lasting Power Supply, or it is done thru necesity, as an exact replacement no longer exists. It fits into him just fine (Just like the new axe handle fits the old Axe head just fine) but it is NOT the old power supply. Its not even made the same. It "fits", but thats the only comparison.. Eventually, even if it takes hundreds (or thousands) ov years.. eventually Astroboy is no longer Astroboy. EVERYTHING is eventually replaced. It is replaced by what could be countless generations of Scientists and engineers as those originally in his life live, grow old, die. But Astro Still lives on. but is he still astro? There is NOTHING of Astro left. No original parts, not even original theorys, mechanics, meterials. Nothing. And after so long, after generations, how much of his MIND remains? How much of the Astro we read about and watch is still there in this unknown future?

The only thing that makes him "astro" is the fact that he started out as Astro. His origins go back to astro, but who is he then? who is he once there is nothing of Astro left?

So there is two scenarios. One where Astro becomes obsolete, and eventually wastes away, or one where he is alwas cared for, always loved, always maintained.. but this way he will eventually no loger BE Astro.

Tis indeed a complex life our little hero will lead. WHat does happen to Astro after the period of the stories we have end? Chances are not even Tezuka himself knew this. No one ever will.

[jeffbert]

After you have gone to all the trouble of writing all that, Danny, I am going to be very cruel. I do not think that Tezuka or anyone associated with Atom worries about these things.

This reminds me of a literature class I took a few years ago. We would sit around (well, actually it was a online class) & discuss characters' motivations, & even try to determine what messages the author was trying to convey through the story. All this was assuming he was writing for such a purpose, rather than some other reason.

Getting back to your post, old systems are upgraded with new components. The B-52, was one such system. These aircraft were in service for what, 20, 30 years? Eventually the cost Vs. benefit fraction of upgrading becomes unacceptable. So, they design the B-1 then the B-2. In Atom's case, his psychological and other such intangibles are what makes him 'him.' These are the irreplacable parts. Remmember what Bender became when he fell into the fountain of youth? He was reduced to a compact disc. This was his essence, it was what he was that made him recognizible as 'Bender,' rather than the other robot who was physically identical to him except for having a beard.

I remember a FF comic in which Dr. Doom was fryed by the Silver Surfer. He would have been dead were it not for his swapping consciousness with some other guy. Now, Dr. Doom was in this other guy's body, & he was having a hassle going into his own home, because his security devices did not recognize the other guy's body. He was Dr. Doom, regardless of what body he was 'in.' Likewise with Atom, when they bad guys suckered him into an 18 year-old version of 'himself,' so they could steal his original body, & use it for crime, he was forced to destroy it (Astroboy Stolen). Yet, even in a teenage body, he was still 'himself.'

Tezuka explored this topic with his Marvelous Melmo series. In this, a (10 1/2 to 11-year old) girl could change her body's appearance by eating 'candy.' She could age it by 10 years with each piece of blue (or was it red?), and cause it to anti-age with the other colored candy by 10 years. regardless of whether she appeared to be a 19 year-old, or a granny, she was Melmo, and possessed Melmo's 11 year-old personality, understanding, maturity, etc. In fact, by eating a combination of these candies, she could even transform into various animals. But whether she was a cute little puppy (complete with pink ribbons tied into bows), or an elephant, she was still Melmo, an 11 year-old girl (or was she 10 1/2? ).

Melmo episode guide

Note that Melmo matured (naturally) into a beautiful woman in the end, just as she used the very last of her candy.

Atom seems to understand the concept of death, but would he have trouble accepting the death of friends? Again, I think this is asking a question that his creators (Tezuka et al) did not worry about. Granted there was a manga story in which he realized that he would always be a kid, even when his human friends were grown, but I do not remember him thinking about them dying of old age. B)

Compare this to the Tachicomas' (Ghost in the Shell: Standalone Complex) discussion about it. They realized that they could not die, because they were not alive in any biological sense. They also admitted that they really did not understand the concept itself. As their AI began to develop into full-fledged person-hood, they did worry about their masters' denying them their person-hood, apparntly because they feared the Tachicomas would not obey their orders, or would go off on their own, seeking goals other than theirs.

[Astro Forever]

I think Astro would be able to handle having his friends growing up without him. In "Astro Fights Aliens" and on serveral other occasions, he had to work with adults and even lead them and it worked just fine. As Garcia said in "The Secret of the Mayas", don't let appearances deceive you or something like that. Maybe at first it would seem strange to adults but I guess after a while they'd realize that he might have the size of a 9 year-old, but his mind is beyond that. I think he'd be even easier for those who already knew him, such as his friends, to have him hang around. Maybe things could become a little bit more difficult while his friends would be teenagers, but I think his strength and abilities would make him cool among them anyway.

As for dealing with death, Astro had tons of friends dying, in the 80 series at least. When Light Ray had to be destroyed, he was sad but said he understood, so it looks like he has an amazing capacity to accept the inevitable. After his first love died, he decided to keep her memory with him by keeping her legs and was able to smile afterwards. So I guess he understood a concept of "those who you loved will always stay with you as long as you remember them" or something like that.

Lastly, he'd die eventually, but he might not live for such a long time, given the risky missions he is given and his willingness to give his life to save other's. But even if his body had to change a little bit through the years, I think he'd still be himself because all he has learned with time is invaluable and makes him unique.

[dannavy85]

I am going to be very cruel.

Honesty is never so. Thanks Jeff.

[fafner]

Originally posted by Astro forever@Aug 29 2005, 10:16 PM
As for dealing with death, Astro had tons of friends dying, in the 80 series at least. When Light Ray had to be destroyed, he was sad but said he understood, so it looks like he has an amazing capacity to accept the inevitable. After his first love died, he decided to keep her memory with him by keeping her legs and was able to smile afterwards. So I guess he understood a concept of "those who you loved will always stay with you as long as you remember them" or something like that.

I think there is a small difference: Astro will almost invariably lose all people he knows
Try to imagine yourself in the situation of immortality: you are, let's say, 3500 years old. You have met countless people who you have seen grow up, age, and finally die. Your memory is a live museum as you can recall events thousands years old (imagine that someone with this age today could have easily met Jesus in case he existed). With such a memory you can recall most people you met. So each time you meet someone else, it may be hard to consider befriending with him/her, as you will most probably see him/her die one day
I think it is not the same as befriending with someone with roughly the same life expectancy. Not to say Astro couldn't handle it though, as you noted, he is quite strong

[jeffbert]

Originally posted by fafner+Aug 30 2005, 12:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (fafner @ Aug 30 2005, 12:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Astro forever@Aug 29 2005, 10:16 PM
As for dealing with death, Astro had tons of friends dying, in the 80 series at least.  When Light Ray had to be destroyed, he was sad but said he understood, so it looks like he has an amazing capacity to accept the inevitable.  After his first love died, he decided to keep her memory with him by keeping her legs and was able to smile afterwards.  So I guess he understood a concept of "those who you loved will always stay with you as long as you remember them" or something like that.

I think there is a small difference: Astro will almost invariably lose all people he knows
Try to imagine yourself in the situation of immortality: you are, let's say, 3500 years old. You have met countless people who you have seen grow up, age, and finally die. Your memory is a live museum as you can recall events thousands years old (imagine that someone with this age today could have easily met Jesus in case he existed). With such a memory you can recall most people you met. So each time you meet someone else, it may be hard to consider befriending with him/her, as you will most probably see him/her die one day
I think it is not the same as befriending with someone with roughly the same life expectancy. Not to say Astro couldn't handle it though, as you noted, he is quite strong [/b][/quote]
There was a TZ story about a guy who was immortal in that he did not age. However, he was not immortal in that he was killed by a man who wanted his daughter to marry a regular man.

If Tenma had his way, Atom would regard humans as a child regards hamsters. Love them while they live, weep about them when they die, but forget about them by the next day. Ok, so that makes Tenma's position not quite as dark as it was (2003), but tough.

[fafner]

Originally posted by jeffbert@Aug 30 2005, 06:32 PM
If Tenma had his way, Atom would regard humans as a child regards hamsters. Love them while they live, weep about them when they die, but forget about them by the next day. Ok, so that makes Tenma's position not quite as dark as it was (2003), but tough.

That's the kind of thing that would make me afraid of immortality: weep about friends when they die each time? or get used to it along centuries, and lose a good part of humanity by becoming cold like a machine? :wacko:
Well, a machine like a big gray box with lights everywhere and big winds, not a machine like Astro of course

[Astro Forever]

Originally posted by fafner@Aug 30 2005, 12:09 PM
I think there is a small difference: Astro will almost invariably lose all people he knows
Try to imagine yourself in the situation of immortality: you are, let's say, 3500 years old. You have met countless people who you have seen grow up, age, and finally die. Your memory is a live museum as you can recall events thousands years old (imagine that someone with this age today could have easily met Jesus in case he existed). With such a memory you can recall most people you met. So each time you meet someone else, it may be hard to consider befriending with him/her, as you will most probably see him/her die one day
I think it is not the same as befriending with someone with roughly the same life expectancy. Not to say Astro couldn't handle it though, as you noted, he is quite strong

I see what you mean. But when he'd met somebody, let's say, somebody in their 40s, he would know he can realistically expect this person to be alive for a good 40 years more, which I would think would be worthwile enough to give him enough interest in making new friends and continue to live (or course, we all know that anything can happen at anytime). Sure, Astro might have to cope with a lot more deaths than an average human being. But even humans can be very strong, they can go through a lot if they get some kind of emotional support. I think he'd be wise enough to accept the fate and cope with deaths one after the other, because hopefully he'd still have enough good times in between in his life to be happy to be living.

Also, while he might be able to live for a very long time, as I said, I think he'd still need luck to live for centuries, like avoiding accidents and getting the support he needs from those who would have to take the decision to maintain him.