The Death of Sigfried "The Gotterdamerung"

[cybotron]

Astro was designed to be a weapon. Like a cruise missle or F-18.
The other robots are trying to make Astro obsolete and failing. But O Faf... You dodged the betrayal issue nicely. They promised love and kisses from MiMi yum yum, and then it's yuck instead. But I think Robot fear is upon the Sci-fi world. C3po and R2-D2 are ok, but Astro is too near Gort for the wild side of man to tolerate. I Robot is coming soon and Terminator has made Sci-fi nervous... That's why Astro was betrayed. But really, all heroes are betrayed in the end like Siegfried. Man loves sly wickedness. The world hates living heroes. B)

[fafner]

But O Faf... You dodged the betrayal issue nicely.

It appears I have dodged the topic, but in fact betrayal implies judgement, and I made no judgement about Dr. Tenma's behaviour. I just pointed the possible consequences. Betrayal implies judgement because it happens when someone changes a good behaviour to a bad one against someone. Whether a behaviour is good or bad is indeed subject to judgement.
If we take Astro as referential, Dr. Tenma has betrayed Astro. He created him, then had a bad behaviour against him. But anyway, had he someday had a good behaviour toward Astro? Personnally I don't know, if it is not the case, there is no betrayal anyway.
If we take Dr. Tenma as referential, there is no betrayal, because in his point of view, he is trying to force Astro to evolve. So he must think he is helping Astro. But maybe he wants, as you appears to think, to create a terrific weapon at his service :wacko: . This would be a betrayal against all what Astro believes in.

There is no clear way to say whether it is a betrayal or not. This is subjective.

I Robot is coming soon and Terminator has made Sci-fi nervous... That's why Astro was betrayed. But really, all heroes are betrayed in the end like Siegfried. Man loves sly wickedness. The world hates living heroes. B)

Man fears what looks more powerfull than him, especially if what is more powerfull has a free will, that is if it can't be controlled. Whether Astro has good or bad intentions, he has a free will, and is more powerfull than the standard human, even armed with weapons. This primitive fear, with no bounds, can lead to destroy ( betray ) Astro despite of tangible facts that he does help humanity. The true challenge for Astro won't be to beat all powerfull robots Dr. Tenma will throw at his face be it by brute force or by turning them into allies, it will be to make humanity evolve so they will accept Astro's free will, as well as the possibility of independent robots. If he fails, he might be betrayed as you say (that is if Dr. Tenma doesn't break his "toy" ), and all will go "back to normal", with no evolution.

Anyway, I'll try to terminate on Gotterdamerung to give the illusion I am not off topic I think the idea behind the death of Siegfried is that he's a demigod, he can't live in a world that will be occupied by humans. He had to die so he would not become a "god" among normal humans, preventing the actual dawn of the gods. So the reasons why Siegfried and Astro can be betrayed are not the same.

I'm always trying to contradict everyone here :wacko: tell me if I upset you

[jeffbert]

If I may add my own comments:

Astro was designed to be a weapon. Like a cruise missle or F-18.

Let me now speak of Atom, Tenma (2003), Siegfried, and Wotan.

Wotan 'created' Siegfried from pure blood. Siegmund and Sieglinda were both children of Wotan, but having a human mother. When these two produced Siegfried, he had both parents of divine/human origin. Thus, he was even more suited to the task than his father. Restoration of the Rhinegold to the Rhinemaidens was Wotan's purpose all along. He may have had to alter his method, but his purpose was unchanged.

Tenma's original intent was to create a robot in Tobio's image, and that robot should serve as Tobio. However, whether his grief over Tobio's death or some other thing, somthing drove him to madness. What father would remember his deceased son by creating a cruise missile or an F-18, Cybotron? Clearly, Tenma lost his focus during this project, and created a robot that although it resembeled Tobio, & may even have thought it was Tobio, was equipped with powerful weapons, rockets, etc. After having burned the ministry of science and deactived and abandoned his surrogate son, Tenma stepped out of the picture, only to return once he learned that his creation had been reactivated. This creation was content to live with Dr. O, as though he were his son. What kind of god would create a son, abandon him, and then after seeing some else take an interest in him, bring such trouble upon him, all the while hiding in the shadows? Tenma certainly spent no love upon his creation after abandoning him.

Tenma does have some similarities to Wotan, but is surely no equivelant. Tenma may have thought to play god, but so did Fabry the scientist who created R.U.R. (Rossums Universal Robots) Both created robots, whether biological or mechanical for their own selfish purposes. Tenma's purpose was subject to change, but eventually became having his onetime son become king of the world. Fabry's was to create souless, willless servants that would labor tirelessly, never complain, and be cheap & disposable. Fabry's purpose was to relieve men of ,drudgery,' from which the word 'robot' dreives. His purpose remained the same, but he may also have been willing to alter his method. Tenma's purpose changed, and with it, his method.

I will leave any comparision to Gort for a later posting.

B)

[cybotron]

Originally posted by jeffbert@Jun 21 2004, 08:20 AM
If I may add my own comments:

[b]Astro was designed to be a weapon. Like a cruise missle or F-18.

Let me now speak of Atom, Tenma (2003), Siegfried, and Wotan.

.

Tenma's original intent was to create a robot in Tobio's image, and that robot should serve as Tobio. However, whether his grief over Tobio's death or some other thing, somthing drove him to madness. What father would remember his deceased son by creating a cruise missile or an F-18, Cybotron? Clearly, Tenma lost his focus during this project, and created a robot that although it resembeled Tobio, & may even have thought it was Tobio, was equipped with powerful weapons, rockets, etc. After having burned the ministry of science and deactived and abandoned his surrogate son, Tenma stepped out of the picture, only to return once he learned that his creation had been reactivated.

B) [/b]

It was Tenma's purpose to use Astro to fight other robots. He created Shadow (a type of Satan) to make evil robot enemies for Astro to overcome. Tenma then turned away and paid no attention to what Shadow made. The evil bots that Astro fought were the work of Shadow. In The twilight of God Apocalypse. God creates satan, satan creates the 666 beast the enemy of God's son. Get the idea? :wacko:
I think this is the simple way of seeing it.

[jeffbert]

It was Tenma's purpose to use Astro to fight other robots. He created Shadow (a type of Satan) to make evil robot enemies for Astro to overcome. Tenma then turned away and paid no attention to what Shadow made. The evil bots that Astro fought were the work of Shadow.

Have you seen all 50 episodes? If so, you should know that Tenma created Atom for the reason I have already stated. Moreover, once he recovered possession of him (#49), he rebuilt/repaired him, and again implanted memories of Tobio's childhood. Although I know very few Japanese words, it is clear to me that Atom once again believed he was the human Tobio, and forgot all about Uranium and others whom he had known as a robot. Thus, your statement is irrelevant; for, it was only after creating the robot to be a son, becoming insane, abandoning him, etc, that he decided to do as you have stated. However, it is crystal clear (for reasons I have already stated) that his origional intent was not what you have asserted.

You are wrong, but too conceited to admit it, even though the evidence is against you.

B)

[cybotron]

Originally posted by jeffbert@Jun 21 2004, 11:18 AM

[b]It was Tenma's purpose to use Astro to fight other robots. He created Shadow (a type of Satan) to make evil robot enemies for Astro to overcome. Tenma then turned away and paid no attention to what Shadow made. The evil bots that Astro fought were the work of Shadow.

Have you seen all 50 episodes? If so, you should know that Tenma created Atom for the reason I have already stated. Moreover, once he recovered possession of him (#49), he rebuilt/repaired him, and again implanted memories of Tobio's childhood. Although I know very few Japanese words, it is clear to me that Atom once again believed he was the human Tobio, and forgot all about Uranium and others whom he had known as a robot. Thus, your statement is irrelevant; for, it was only after creating the robot to be a son, becoming insane, abandoning him, etc, that he decided to do as you have stated. However, it is crystal clear (for reasons I have already stated) that his origional intent was not what you have asserted.

You are wrong, but too conceited to admit it, even though the evidence is against you.

B) [/b]

Ahhhhh.
The reborn child has his former life erased. And only the deja vu of fragmented memories. But how does that disprove what I said about shadow? And the analog remains. The entire soul journey is rife with the similitude. We are implanted with the memories of the creators son's past life. Are they our memories? Or someone else's. The riddle of the lama. Did the state Military industrial complex pay for Astro's design and building? Are his weapon's licensed? Was Tenma a defense department employee? Is the IOS a goverment agency doing war research? Why does Astro have destructive weapons? You skirt the issue very well.
Astro is in fact a walking talking predator-recon/cruisemissle/robot.
There was a cult of Agnostics that believed that the Creator god of the old testament was insane and blind and called him the Ialldabaoth "Demiurge".... But you did not disprove my point.
You may need my statement to be irrelevant...
But it is not. And my analysis transcends conceit.
Where did Tenma get the funds and material to build Atom, if not from war research? His plan had to be a weapon. The goverment would never fund his building his son. Use your logic guy.
And further more the institute of Science is not a private institution.

[jeffbert]

The reborn child has his former life erased. And only the deja vu of fragmented memories. But how does that disprove what I said about shadow? And the analog remains. The entire soul journey is rife with the similitude. We are implanted with the memories of the creators son's past life. Are they our memories? Or someone else's. The riddle of the lama. Did the state Military industrial complex pay for Astro's design and building? Are his weapon's licensed? Was Tenma a defense department employee? Is the IOS a goverment agency doing war research? Why does Astro have destructive weapons? You skirt the issue very well.
Astro is in fact a walking talking predator-recon/cruisemissle/robot.
There was a cult of Agnostics that believed that the Creator god of the old testament was insane and blind and called him the Ialldabaoth "Demiurge".... But you did not disprove my point.
You may need my statement to be irrelevant...
But it is not. And my analysis transcends conceit.
Where did Tenma get the funds and material to build Atom, if not from war research? His plan had to be a weapon. The goverment would never fund his building his son. Use your logic guy.
And further more the institute of Science is not a private institution.

What you said about Shadow has nothing to do with Tenma's original intent regarding the robot he built, that for some strange reason, resembled Tobio in both appearance and behavior. Given that Shadow's purpose was to challenge Tobio/Atom and either destroy him or improve him, we can see that that purpose remained unchanged. However, while Tenma's designs for Shadow seem to have been constant, his purpose for Tobio/Atom was subject to change.

• He wanted to recreate or resurrect Tobio. Thus the little robot resembled him.
• He seems to have gone mad during the process of creating this little robot, for he added rockets and weapons that would have no purpose in his fulfilling his original role as Tobio Tenma. Recall the scenes from Atom's memories of happy times with papa. He is swinging on a kiddy swing, and Tenma is standing there. The memories he had whether implanted or real, indicate that Tenma initially loved him as his own son.
• Although you may argue about this, there were precedents in earlier series that Tenma abused his authority in creating the robot in the first place. As I do not understand more than a few Japanese words, I need to await CN's release of 49 & 50 to know whether any such elements in the new series. But even assuming none exist, there is no less evidence for my assertion here as there is for your assertions:

  Did the state Military industrial complex pay for Astro's design and building? Are his weapon's licensed? Was Tenma a defense department employee? Is the IOS a goverment agency doing war research? Why does Astro have destructive weapons?

  
  You ask questions, and without offering either answers or pertinent evidence, you conclude, "You [jeffbert] skirt the issue very well." Whether or not the IOS was under military contract, neither you nor I can tell. You merely assume such is the case. However in the two previous series and the manga, there is no such collaboration. Thus, unless you can cite specific incidents in this new series, I will dismiss your conclusions as unfounded. B)

Get a life, man!As I have both stated and supported with evidence (in both this & earlier posts), Wotan and Tenma are not equivalent. Tenma was obviously subject to mood swings, indecisiveness, etc. Wotan's purpose was consistent. If you still take issue with this, either cite some relevant evidence, or remain silent.

Tenma only created Shadow after his purpose for Tobio/Atom had changed. If he had not changed his purpose, would he have burned the IOS or deactivated Tobio? He had clearly realized that although the little robot resembled Tobio, it was not Tobio. He was again grief stricken, and he freaked out. Having thus left his position at the IOS, abandoned Atom, and beginning a secret life, he was contracted to do for Diachi as he had done for Tobio. Create a robot that could not only serve as Diachi, but pass for him. However Diachi's father was negligent, and the robot being lonely, became a delinquent. This delinquent fought Atom, and that rekindled Tenma's interest in Atom. He saw how the conflict between Atom and Atlas affected Atom, and even though he was the weaker of the two, he was victorious. Thus, when he rebuilt Atlas, he did so with the intent of using him to challenge Atom. Atlas being adrift in space, and thought destroyed, Tenma created Shadow, and the rest seems consistent with your statement about Shadow.

Nevertheless, the fact is that your position is incorrect, and as I have already stated why, I will defer repeating that explanation.

[fafner]

Originally posted by cybotron@Jun 20 2004, 03:06 AM
I Just finished watching Dragon Lake... Not bad, not bad at all.
Well Faf. That Dragon Lake episode was right on.
Dragon Lake preview clik here. :wahah:

I just found and downloaded it, I will watch it this evening Hope this isn't about a brother dragon being slayed...

[cybotron]

Originally posted by fafner+Jun 22 2004, 01:24 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (fafner @ Jun 22 2004, 01:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--cybotron@Jun 20 2004, 03:06 AM
I Just finished watching Dragon Lake... Not bad, not bad at all.
Well Faf. That Dragon Lake episode was right on.
Dragon Lake preview clik here. :wahah: 

I just found and downloaded it, I will watch it this evening Hope this isn't about a brother dragon being slayed... [/b][/quote]
downloaded it from where?
And you'll love it.

[fafner]

Originally posted by cybotron@Jun 21 2004, 02:58 AM
In The twilight of God Apocalypse. God creates Satan, Satan creates the 666 beast the enemy of God's son.

I wouldn't say I have much knowledge in domain of religion, but I can't remember anything like God creating satan... Or do you refer to the fact that Satan was Lucifer, a former Angel who tried to take the place of the "boss" ? So being an angel he would be a creation of God, however would not have been created as evil.

Where did Tenma get the funds and material to build Atom, if not from war research? His plan had to be a weapon. The goverment would never fund his building his son.

This makes sense. At least in the 80s. I have only seen the first episodes in Japanese and English, but I could understand that Tobiyo first suggested to his father to build a child robot instead of an adult robot, an idea that seemed to inspire Dr. Tenma. Shortly after, Tobiyo died in the car accident. From this point, I have the impression that Dr. Tenma tried to mix his desire to resurrect Tobiyo with his new project, so it was necessary to implant weapons in the robot, be it a reincarnation of Tobiyo or not, so it would fit in the agenda of the ministery of science.