Star Wars

[fafner]

Originally posted by adrian _68@Jun 2 2005, 10:17 AM
Just to clarify things, where did Obi-Wan go after giving Luke to Owen and Beru Lars?

He simply remains in the vicinity. He is the weird hermite in the beginning of episode 4, the old Ben.

[cybotron]

Originally posted by jeffbert@May 30 2005, 12:36 PM
Stories, plays, etc, have been used to cloak political comments for a very long time. Messages were masked in metaphors if the people expressing them were fearful of consequences; in other cases, they were more obvious. I am not expert on this, but even [b]Gulliver's Travels was highly political by its metaphors that were meaningful to the readers at that time. The Gospels also employ metaphor in the parables attributed to Jesus.

As far as modern films are concerned, I either like or dislike them for reasons other than such political messages. I thought the Robocop trilogy was full of anti-bussiness or perhaps I should call them "trust the (big & getting bigger) government & distrust private industry" messages. While I disagreed with that, I still refused to let that ruin my enjoyment of the film.

However, I recognise that these subtle messages are at least as effective if not more so, than outright rhetoric. This is because the listener will be on the defensive if he hears statements that directly counter what he believes. Yet, if that rhetoric is hidden in a story, he will likely be less defensive. If he has been reading a story and has come to identiy with a character, that character can in latter parts of the story, express views with which the reader disagrees even strongly, and that reader just might begin to see the other side's view on that issue. I have studied psychology in college, & now wonder if there is a class about the psychology of propaganda. I would enroll if I could find such a thing.

Several factors are at work, though:

1. Group dynamics/peer pressure.
If more than 1 person holds a particular view, that group holding the view has a greater influence than an individual. There were more than a few psychologists who recognised that the mob mentality robbed people of their common sense or ethics. This was true of the Nazi war crimes trials as well as rioting, etc. Experts in psyc argued that had the circumstances been different, it would be appropriate to hold the henchmen accountable, but since they were carried away with a group that collectively did such & such, the personal responsibility could not be proven.

Sorry I am a bit vague on that, but it has been a year since I finished school. If anybody wants clarification, please ask, & I will refer to my text books.

2. As noted above, the power that empathy for the story's protagonist has over the reader's values.

3. as noted above, the disconnection between the situation in the story and that of the real world, allows the writers to express views that otherwise would draw criticism.  Ok, I realize that some have detected political messages in III, but nevertheless, others might not. Of those who do see political views  in the films, how many leave the theatre mid film rather than tolerate the film to its end? They may not have agreed with the statement, but they did receive it.



I am too tired to continue this right now.  B)
However, I welcome any civilized discussion of my statement.[/b]

Absolute nonsense! :wahah: But what would one expect from an Anti-Freudian absurdist? The film was a Judeo-Christian Pit scenario based on the Apocalyptic Prophecies of the Bible. Pure and simple. There were Diverse peoples living in the pit of R9, that came to Obi Wan and asked to be saved from "the enemy." This scenario is ancient. But to cast Ani into the fate of Satan......
You might provoke somebody. h34r:

[fafner]

Originally posted by cybotron@Jun 12 2005, 06:38 AM
You might provoke somebody. h34r:

Good thing you can't provoke somebody yourself

[cybotron]

Originally posted by fafner+Jun 12 2005, 05:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (fafner @ Jun 12 2005, 05:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--cybotron@Jun 12 2005, 06:38 AM
You might provoke somebody. h34r:

Good thing you can't provoke somebody yourself [/b][/quote]
Don't get me started Faf...
It's still Ani... And it's still the fate of the damned from the bible. Lucas is a whore. :wahah:

[Danny]

Originally posted by cybotron@Jun 12 2005, 07:10 PM
Lucas is a stupid, greedy whore.

Fixed

[jeffbert]

Originally posted by cybotron+Jun 11 2005, 11:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (cybotron @ Jun 11 2005, 11:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--jeffbert@May 30 2005, 12:36 PM
Stories, plays, etc, have been used to cloak political comments for a very long time. Messages were masked in metaphors if the people expressing them were fearful of consequences; in other cases, they were more obvious. I am not expert on this, but even [b]Gulliver's Travels was highly political by its metaphors that were meaningful to the readers at that time. The Gospels also employ metaphor in the parables attributed to Jesus.

As far as modern films are concerned, I either like or dislike them for reasons other than such political messages. I thought the Robocop trilogy was full of anti-bussiness or perhaps I should call them "trust the (big & getting bigger) government & distrust private industry" messages. While I disagreed with that, I still refused to let that ruin my enjoyment of the film.

However, I recognise that these subtle messages are at least as effective if not more so, than outright rhetoric. This is because the listener will be on the defensive if he hears statements that directly counter what he believes. Yet, if that rhetoric is hidden in a story, he will likely be less defensive. If he has been reading a story and has come to identiy with a character, that character can in latter parts of the story, express views with which the reader disagrees even strongly, and that reader just might begin to see the other side's view on that issue. I have studied psychology in college, & now wonder if there is a class about the psychology of propaganda. I would enroll if I could find such a thing.

Several factors are at work, though:

1. Group dynamics/peer pressure.
If more than 1 person holds a particular view, that group holding the view has a greater influence than an individual. There were more than a few psychologists who recognised that the mob mentality robbed people of their common sense or ethics. This was true of the Nazi war crimes trials as well as rioting, etc. Experts in psyc argued that had the circumstances been different, it would be appropriate to hold the henchmen accountable, but since they were carried away with a group that collectively did such & such, the personal responsibility could not be proven.

Sorry I am a bit vague on that, but it has been a year since I finished school. If anybody wants clarification, please ask, & I will refer to my text books.

2. As noted above, the power that empathy for the story's protagonist has over the reader's values.

3. as noted above, the disconnection between the situation in the story and that of the real world, allows the writers to express views that otherwise would draw criticism.  Ok, I realize that some have detected political messages in III, but nevertheless, others might not. Of those who do see political views  in the films, how many leave the theatre mid film rather than tolerate the film to its end? They may not have agreed with the statement, but they did receive it.



I am too tired to continue this right now.  B)
However, I welcome any civilized discussion of my statement.[/b]

Absolute nonsense! :wahah: But what would one expect from an Anti-Freudian absurdist? The film was a Judeo-Christian Pit scenario based on the Apocalyptic Prophecies of the Bible. Pure and simple. There were Diverse peoples living in the pit of R9, that came to Obi Wan and asked to be saved from "the enemy." This scenario is ancient. But to cast Ani into the fate of Satan......
You might provoke somebody. h34r: [/b][/quote]
As it stands, your response only refers to my post as a whole. Please humor me & state which of my statements with which you disagree.

1. That stories and metaphors were used to convey political messages.

2. That these storie were more effective at persuasion than stating one's position outright.

3. Other (please specify).

I do not believe I said anything about Anakin being cast as Satan. It was not I who said that.

[cybotron]

Of course it wasn't and that's the point. You should have been outraged about the crucifixion of poor Ani. Again they have made their children pass through the fire and sacrificed them to Moloch.

[jeffbert]

Originally posted by cybotron@Jun 13 2005, 11:46 AM
Of course it wasn't and that's the point. You should have been outraged about the crucifixion of poor Ani. Again they have made their children pass through the fire and sacrificed them to Moloch.

Why do I even bother responding to you? I want to know which of my statements you are calling "absolute nonsense." Yes, I did say something about Anikin, but your first and most provokative stament was vague. For now, just forget that I even mentioned Anikin.

[cybotron]

Because your statement diverts attention from the real issues. Do you have a mental block? Do you see ani cast while yet alive into the tormenting fires of the damned? It's an emotional thing you make no mention of.

[DrFrag]

Originally posted by cybotron@Jun 12 2005, 02:38 PM
But to cast Ani into the fate of Satan......
You might provoke somebody. h34r:

But he came good in the end, right?