Star Wars

[jeffbert]

Originally posted by cybotron@Jun 15 2005, 07:11 AM
Because your statement diverts attention from the real issues. Do you have a mental block? Do you see ani cast while yet alive into the tormenting fires of the damned? It's an emotional thing you make no mention of.

I made no mention of it because I had not seen the film when I posted that. Which of my statements do you call 'nonsense' & why? I refuse to make reference to anything else until you answer.

Nyaah!

[cybotron]

Originally posted by DrFrag+Jun 15 2005, 11:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (DrFrag @ Jun 15 2005, 11:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--cybotron@Jun 12 2005, 02:38 PM
But to cast Ani into the fate of Satan......
You might provoke somebody. h34r:

But he came good in the end, right? [/b][/quote]
Which makes it nonsense Nobody comes up from damnation to make anything good. Satan is released from the abyss only to be thrown into the lake burning with fire and brimstone for his retuen into evil. Lucas could have injured Ani any kind of way other than the lava and Darth Vader would have made spiritual sense. But what he did was not right, and muddled the story. :wahah:

[cybotron]

Originally posted by jeffbert+Jun 16 2005, 03:28 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (jeffbert @ Jun 16 2005, 03:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--cybotron@Jun 15 2005, 07:11 AM
Because your statement diverts attention from the real issues. Do you have a mental block? Do you see ani cast while yet alive into the tormenting fires of the damned?   It's an emotional  thing you make no mention of.

I made no mention of it because I had not seen the film when I posted that. Which of my statements do you call 'nonsense' & why? I refuse to make reference to anything else until you answer.

Nyaah! [/b][/quote]
I'm sorry... If you had not seen the movie then no wonder your post was like that. Since you did not and could not know what you were talking about since you had not seen the movie. So HOW could you make any coherent statement or analysis of Episode III if you had not seen it. Noooooo on second thought.... I was right. :wahah: What you posted was NONSENSE.... I'll wait til you see it.

[DrFrag]

Originally posted by cybotron+Jun 16 2005, 09:06 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (cybotron @ Jun 16 2005, 09:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -DrFrag@Jun 15 2005, 11:39 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--cybotron@Jun 12 2005, 02:38 PM
[b] But to cast Ani into the fate of Satan...... 
You might provoke somebody. h34r:

But he came good in the end, right? [/b]

Which makes it nonsense Nobody comes up from damnation to make anything good. Satan is released from the abyss only to be thrown into the lake burning with fire and brimstone for his retuen into evil. Lucas could have injured Ani any kind of way other than the lava and Darth Vader would have made spiritual sense. But what he did was not right, and muddled the story. :wahah: [/b][/quote]
Perhaps Darth Vader represents a repentant sinner or some kind of death bed conversion rather than Satan. Now that I think about it, the Emperor seems more representative of Satan - the way he deceives Anakin, tempts Luke, and is ultimately thrown into the "pit".
Anyway, I'm hoping to see it this weekend so hopefully I'll have a broader perspective.

[fafner]

Originally posted by cybotron@Jun 16 2005, 01:06 AM
Which makes it nonsense Nobody comes up from damnation to make anything good. Satan is released from the abyss only to be thrown into the lake burning with fire and brimstone for his retuen into evil. Lucas could have injured Ani any kind of way other than the lava and Darth Vader would have made spiritual sense. But what he did was not right, and muddled the story. :wahah:

If that doesn't match, maybe that's because Lucas didn't meant to associate Anakin with Satan, rather than failing in the comparison

[jeffbert]

Originally posted by cybotron+Jun 15 2005, 06:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (cybotron @ Jun 15 2005, 06:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -jeffbert@Jun 16 2005, 03:28 AM

Originally posted by -cybotron@Jun 15 2005, 07:11 AM
[b]Because your statement diverts attention from the real issues. Do you have a mental block? Do you see ani cast while yet alive into the tormenting fires of the damned?   It's an emotional  thing you make no mention of.

I made no mention of it because I had not seen the film when I posted that. Which of my statements do you call 'nonsense' & why? I refuse to make reference to anything else until you answer.

Nyaah! [/b]

I'm sorry... If you had not seen the movie then no wonder your post was like that. Since you did not and could not know what you were talking about since you had not seen the movie. So HOW could you make any coherent statement or analysis of Episode III if you had not seen it. Noooooo on second thought.... I was right. :wahah: What you posted was NONSENSE.... I'll wait til you see it. [/b]

Even though I had not seen the film, I did know that the assertion that Anikin's "if you're not on my side you're my enemy" statement was or was likely based upon Jesus' words, rather than george Bush's. Ok, that refers to my first post to this thread on this subject (jeffbert Posted: May 29 2005, 10:21 AM). However, in my post that you quote,

Originally posted by -cybotron@Jun 11 2005, 11:38 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--jeffbert@May 30 2005, 12:36 PM
[b]Stories, plays, etc, have been used to cloak political comments for a very long time. Messages were masked in metaphors if the people expressing them were fearful of consequences; in other cases, they were more obvious. I am not expert on this, but even [b]Gulliver's Travels was highly political by its metaphors that were meaningful to the readers at that time. The Gospels also employ metaphor in the parables attributed to Jesus.

As far as modern films are concerned, I either like or dislike them for reasons other than such political messages. I thought the Robocop trilogy was full of anti-bussiness or perhaps I should call them "trust the (big & getting bigger) government & distrust private industry" messages. While I disagreed with that, I still refused to let that ruin my enjoyment of the film.

However, I recognise that these subtle messages are at least as effective if not more so, than outright rhetoric. This is because the listener will be on the defensive if he hears statements that directly counter what he believes. Yet, if that rhetoric is hidden in a story, he will likely be less defensive. If he has been reading a story and has come to identiy with a character, that character can in latter parts of the story, express views with which the reader disagrees even strongly, and that reader just might begin to see the other side's view on that issue. I have studied psychology in college, & now wonder if there is a class about the psychology of propaganda. I would enroll if I could find such a thing.

Several factors are at work, though:

1. Group dynamics/peer pressure.
If more than 1 person holds a particular view, that group holding the view has a greater influence than an individual. There were more than a few psychologists who recognised that the mob mentality robbed people of their common sense or ethics. This was true of the Nazi war crimes trials as well as rioting, etc. Experts in psyc argued that had the circumstances been different, it would be appropriate to hold the henchmen accountable, but since they were carried away with a group that collectively did such & such, the personal responsibility could not be proven.

Sorry I am a bit vague on that, but it has been a year since I finished school. If anybody wants clarification, please ask, & I will refer to my text books.

2. As noted above, the power that empathy for the story's protagonist has over the reader's values.

3. as noted above, the disconnection between the situation in the story and that of the real world, allows the writers to express views that otherwise would draw criticism.  Ok, I realize that some have detected political messages in III, but nevertheless, others might not. Of those who do see political views  in the films, how many leave the theatre mid film rather than tolerate the film to its end? They may not have agreed with the statement, but they did receive it.



I am too tired to continue this right now.  B)
However, I welcome any civilized discussion of my statement.[/b]

Absolute nonsense! :wahah: But what would one expect from an Anti-Freudian absurdist? The film was a Judeo-Christian Pit scenario based on the Apocalyptic Prophecies of the Bible. Pure and simple. There were Diverse peoples living in the pit of R9, that came to Obi Wan and asked to be saved from "the enemy." This scenario is ancient. But to cast Ani into the fate of Satan......
You might provoke somebody. h34r:[/b][/quote]

I said nothing about this film in particular.

[cybotron]

Originally posted by fafner+Jun 17 2005, 01:16 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (fafner @ Jun 17 2005, 01:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--cybotron@Jun 16 2005, 01:06 AM
Which makes it nonsense   Nobody comes up from damnation to make anything good. Satan is released from the abyss only to be thrown into the lake burning with fire and brimstone for his retuen into evil. Lucas could have injured Ani any kind of way other than the lava and Darth Vader would have made spiritual sense. But what he did was not right, and muddled the story. :wahah:

If that doesn't match, maybe that's because Lucas didn't meant to associate Anakin with Satan, rather than failing in the comparison [/b][/quote]
in star wars? With it's resurected ghost jedi? And the force? With it's vailed biblical stuff throughout the series? They just cruxified Anikin. The doom of satan is not singulsr. There are a couple of beings that go to it. The fate of Ani is obvious.

[cybotron]

Originally posted by jeffbert@Jun 17 2005, 02:25 AM

3. as noted above, the disconnection between the situation in the story and that of the real world, allows the writers to express views that otherwise would draw criticism.  Ok, I realize that some have detected political messages in III, but nevertheless, others might not. Of those who do see political views  in the films, how many leave the theatre mid film rather than tolerate the film to its end? They may not have agreed with the statement, but they did receive it.



I am too tired to continue this right now.  B)
However, I welcome any civilized discussion of my statement.

Absolute nonsense! :wahah: But what would one expect from an Anti-Freudian absurdist? The film was a Judeo-Christian Pit scenario based on the Apocalyptic Prophecies of the Bible. Pure and simple. There were Diverse peoples living in the pit of R9, that came to Obi Wan and asked to be saved from "the enemy." This scenario is ancient. But to cast Ani into the fate of Satan......
You might provoke somebody. h34r:

I said nothing about this film in particular.
[/quote]
I thought you were talking about star wars and the butchering of Ani. You know in comparison with other cinema. Sorry. Now I see you were not talking about episode III at all.

[jeffbert]

Originally posted by cybotron@Jun 17 2005, 07:55 AM

3. as noted above, the disconnection between the situation in the story and that of the real world, allows the writers to express views that otherwise would draw criticism.  Ok, I realize that some have detected political messages in III, but nevertheless, others might not. Of those who do see political views  in the films, how many leave the theatre mid film rather than tolerate the film to its end? They may not have agreed with the statement, but they did receive it.



I am too tired to continue this right now.  B)
However, I welcome any civilized discussion of my statement.

Absolute nonsense! :wahah: But what would one expect from an Anti-Freudian absurdist? The film was a Judeo-Christian Pit scenario based on the Apocalyptic Prophecies of the Bible. Pure and simple. There were Diverse peoples living in the pit of R9, that came to Obi Wan and asked to be saved from "the enemy." This scenario is ancient. But to cast Ani into the fate of Satan......
You might provoke somebody. h34r:

I said nothing about this film in particular.

I thought you were talking about star wars and the butchering of Ani. You know in comparison with other cinema. Sorry. Now I see you were not talking about episode III at all. [/quote]
Apology accepted.

[cybotron]

Yeah..... You might provoke somebody with this crap!