The Death of Sigfried "The Gotterdamerung"

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fafner
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Postby fafner » 21 years ago

Originally posted by cybotron@Jun 25 2004, 07:19 PM
The king is the Goverment. The usurper is not. B)

I totally agree with you on the point that Lionheart is the legitimate king and the other is the usurpator. However I feel obliged to make a note on the legitimity of a government ;)
In 1789, in France, the monarchy fell and the republic took the place. Today, 200 years after it is the 5th republic, but some people still think that the legitimate government should be a monarchy. After all, the legitimate king was technically murdered ;) If we take it litterally from Robin Hood, the republic who killed the legitimate king should be an usurpator. Would you say that the French Monarchy should be restored? :P Which one is legitimate, and why?

Anyway, I am beginning to change the topic. We were dealing with Astro being or not an agent of the government. In fact we were even talking about Richard Wagner's Gotterdamerung, but that was so far away I don't even remember it :P
You are still mute about that demonstration, if you think it is ok, then say so, if not, break it, I am asking for it ! :wahah:
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Postby jeffbert » 21 years ago

Originally posted by cybotron+Jun 25 2004, 01:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (cybotron @ Jun 25 2004, 01:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by -fafner@Jun 26 2004, 02:06 AM
<!--QuoteBegin--cybotron
@Jun 25 2004, 06:43 PM
[b]You do err not knowing England. Robin Hood was and remains to this very day, an agent of King Richard the Lionheart. He was and is a hero of the Crusader Christian King and his Knights in time of war against the "Assassin" anti christian Iblis Satanos cultis of Medea Persia . He was and is the epitome of loyalty and faithfulness in the face of overwhelming treachery and corruption.   ;)

Let's put things this way: does King Richard Lionheart still represent the government?
Or another hypothesis: what would have happen if Lionheart himself had driven the government into an insane totalitarism?
Robin Hood is not loyal to the government, he is loyal to what is right :) [/b]

he is loyal to Dharma through his loyalty to the King. The king is the Goverment. The usurper is not. B)[/b][/quote]
There is no single Robin Hood. I wrote a term paper on this character, basing heavily upon --I think I sold the book-- anyway, I will copy it to my webspace if you want to read it. I think that I can safely say, MGM's Robin Hood (Errol Flynn) was motivated by a sense of justice, fair play & loyalty to King R. So, if you clarify your statement and refer to this version, your statements then be will without the vagueness from which they now suffer. In addition to the many Robin Hoods, both historic & fictional or mythic, there are the Robin Hoods of the short-lived When things were rotten, & Men in Tights, both from Mel Brook(e)s. :lol:

However, only if you consider the Govt. under Prince John as illegitimate, can you support your claim. In KR's absence, Prince J was left in control. Thus some of his acts were technically lawful. The usurptation of the throne would be one of the things, perhaps the only thing that was not lawful. Raising the taxes, oppressing the poor was nothing unusual for monarchs, notwithstanding the Magna Carta, who held themselves as above the law.

But all that is beside the point, my dear Cybotron. The point is, that you have been successfully fefuted, and rather than either conceding defeat, or defending your positions from other angles, you have simply changed the subject. Both fafner & I have destroyed your conclusions (do you know how long it took me to make that coloful posting, & you did not even bother to address anything in it :cry :) , Answerest thou the charges leveled against thee:



  • You have used the word 'agent' in mutually excusive ways. You cannot support both of these definitions.
  • As fafner has said, Atom's sense of justice and fair play has a higher priority than his adherance to laws. Rember the stuff I wrote about mala in se & mala prohibita? While the manmade law may hold him as guilty, Would Atom have captured Denkou & given him to the authorities? Of course this is a speculative question, but we can cite many events in the manga, & all 3 anime that demonstrate Atom's prioritization of Justice above law. I leave this to fafner to do, lest I should steal his thunder.

Thus, these two points obliterate your assertion that our little hero is an agent of the police, that he was in some chain of command, subject to appropriation by the police, etc. I could cite others, but I already did so in earlier posts.

BTW, I have had Xp for only about 2 years, and already exhausted the #. I had to call MS, and get a new #! :angry: ~%^* :angry: Stupid registry, if it had used only files pertainant to each app, I would have had no trouble. If it had not overwriitten my own restoration points, I would have had no problem!
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Postby cybotron » 21 years ago

Firstly... John was not left in charge. Longchamps was made regent, John usurped the regency. This error alone would cause any Englishman to walk out on your thesis. In WWII you would have been shot as an english speaking Nazi. There is only one Robin.... A spirit. An Angelic spirit. Dharma means righteousness. And the anarchic mind cannot grasp it. It's what makes Churchill a hero and Stalin yet a villain. Washington a hero, and Lenin and Robespierre murdering fools. :D
Dharma is magical. A supernatural power that supports heaven. Every generation the force of Adharma, which is the antithesis of Dharma, seduces and gathers the anarchic mindset into itself and sets out to destroy heaven and the rule of Dharma. Napoleon, Marx, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc. This allways manifests itself in the attempt by the Pseudointellectual to destroy the main doctrine of heaven... Love. So they may kill and steal without the friction of the thought of good and evil. This leads the intellectually deluded anarchist cultist to assume the guise of order that they may destroy the weak point of heaven's reign. Jesus, Xmas, and Easter. Each generation the ruin and destruction of these deluded of Adharma are shown to the children of the new generation along with the heroic spirits of Dharma.
Then later as these children grow older, they say, faaaaaaa heaven faaaaa it's doctrines and this leads them into a hatred of Love which is the spirit of Xmas. And they make speeches, and rail against Xmas and the Child of it, which is seen by them as the only thing wrong in the world, the thing that causes all the evil, the thing that holds back their race from domination, the thing that makes them weak. The thing that prevents their Eugenics. The thing that is darkness. Whole peoples, whole systems, university, college, doctors become SS doctors, Theologians become Pro Nazi, abjects become communist revolutionaries, they will save the world from the evil of religion, with a new religion, with themselves as Christ and their manifesto as Bible, and their mouth as the new God. The newspapers in LA ran to the defense of Manson because he was White Anarchic and had bohemian long hair. He was a rascist murderer. He is their Christ.
Heroics.... Dharma.... Apocalypse. Siegfried.... Hagan...
'Become a Real Astroboy" they said. Fight the Red Dragon they said.
Oppose Satan they said. We defeated the dragon only to be speared by them as reward. So what? They said Xmas was evil... Stupid... They hated it's candy and it's movies, and it's music, and it's doctrines were alien to them.
We have become enlightened by this :wahah: ... We are no longer Ronin. We are Ninja... @ the millenium... The war has started.... We are in our element.
Our attitude is thus.
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Postby jeffbert » 21 years ago

Regardless of the fact that PJ was not left in charge, this does not change the fact that you are wrong on 2 points, as I and fafner have stated. I for one, do not like weeding through your rambling response in search of something that might actually address the question. ;) Why do you so frequently go off topic?



:o
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Postby cybotron » 21 years ago

Originally posted by jeffbert@Jun 26 2004, 11:28 AM
Regardless of the fact that PJ was not left in charge, this does not change the fact that you are wrong on 2 points, as I and fafner have stated. I for one, do not like weeding through your rambling response in search of something that might actually address the question. ;) Why do you so frequently go off topic?



:o

To keep you from learning the secret you seek to know. and to keep you from entering the garden of Eden, lest you get so much as a taste of this divine confection and so live forever... What else?
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Postby fafner » 21 years ago

Originally posted by cybotron+Jun 26 2004, 04:54 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (cybotron @ Jun 26 2004, 04:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>To keep you from learning the secret you seek to know. and to keep you from entering the garden of Eden, lest you get so much as a taste of this divine confection and so live forever... What else?[/b]

Why do you want to keep this secret for you? Why do you want to prevent us from entering the Garden of Eden? :cry: Doesn't compassion means anything for you? :o Do you think we are Satan's agents? :p h34r: Have mercy for our rotten souls pleeeaaaase we may be saved :cry:
Anyway, what is that secret? :unsure:
Oh I have my secret: mathematics and physics, [i]science
! Nobody needs anything more to understand the world :P

Oh well, let's see about Astro defying authority as Jeffbert suggested. I will not say very much about that, let's just see Astro's behaviour in "the robot vikings". In this episode, Astro receives a clear order, directly from Tawashi ( hum... Gumshoe in this serie I believe :D ), not to do anything against the robots committing degradations in the city during the night. Guess what? Astro disobeyed the order, he even disguised himself not to be recognized. He clearly disobeyed a direct order from a government authority holder.

Now, at the risk to upset you... I will just remember you there is a certain demonstration you seem to have forgotten:
<!--QuoteBegin--fafner[/i]
The chain of command is Tawashi -> O'Shay -> Astro , but as you can see O'Shay does not always transmit orders ;)
When someone in the chain of command does not transmit orders, it is unsubordination, unless it is not an official chain of command. If it were unsubordination, then O'Shay would be put before a trial, what didn't happen. And if there is no official chain of command, then by no means people at the end of the chain can be agent of the government.
QED B)
[/quote]
Let's be clear: you, Cybotron, have never mentionned anywhere the existence of this demonstration, be it to agree or disagree, not even without argumentation. My guess is that it highly disturbs you. You don't know how to refutate it, so you are just ignoring it, hoping it will disappear.
Don't let a filthy dragon provoke you! :angry: Prove the sucker is wrong! :wahah:
The real sign that someone has become a fanatic is that he completely loses his sense of humor about some important facet of his life. When humor goes, it means he's lost his perspective.



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Postby cybotron » 21 years ago

Originally posted by fafner+Jun 26 2004, 10:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (fafner @ Jun 26 2004, 10:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
[i]Originally posted by cybotron@Jun 26 2004, 04:54 AM
To keep you from learning the secret you seek to know. and to keep you from entering the garden of Eden, lest you get so much as a taste of this divine confection and so live forever... What else?

Why do you want to keep this secret for you? Why do you want to prevent us from entering the Garden of Eden? :cry: Doesn't compassion means anything for you? :o Do you think we are Satan's agents? :p h34r: Have mercy for our rotten souls pleeeaaaase we may be saved :cry:
Anyway, what is that secret? :unsure:
Oh I have my secret: mathematics and physics, science! Nobody needs anything more to understand the world :P

Oh well, let's see about Astro defying authority as Jeffbert suggested. I will not say very much about that, let's just see Astro's behaviour in "the robot vikings". In this episode, Astro receives a clear order, directly from Tawashi ( hum... Gumshoe in this serie I believe :D ), not to do anything against the robots committing degradations in the city during the night. Guess what? Astro disobeyed the order, he even disguised himself not to be recognized. He clearly disobeyed a direct order from a government authority holder.

Now, at the risk to upset you... I will just remember you there is a certain demonstration you seem to have forgotten:
<!--QuoteBegin--fafner[/i]
The chain of command is Tawashi -> O'Shay -> Astro , but as you can see O'Shay does not always transmit orders ;)
When someone in the chain of command does not transmit orders, it is unsubordination, unless it is not an official chain of command. If it were unsubordination, then O'Shay would be put before a trial, what didn't happen. And if there is no official chain of command, then by no means people at the end of the chain can be agent of the government.
QED B)

Let's be clear: you, Cybotron, have never mentionned anywhere the existence of this demonstration, be it to agree or disagree, not even without argumentation. My guess is that it highly disturbs you. You don't know how to refutate it, so you are just ignoring it, hoping it will disappear.
Don't let a filthy dragon provoke you! :angry: Prove the sucker is wrong! :wahah: [/b][/quote]
Paradise is where the heart is. ones private paradise might have Einstein, Planck, Ferme, Bronkowski, Disney, Demille, Edison, Newton.
Tawashi does not have direct command over astro. His security clearance and authority are not high enough. Dr. Elefun is higher.
Here is an operational profile of a mere X-2 Agent for those who want to be junior G-men
X-2 operative OSS
:wacko:
ps
Science and math will not suffice as a means of control for a state.
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Postby fafner » 21 years ago

Originally posted by cybotron+Jun 26 2004, 06:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (cybotron @ Jun 26 2004, 06:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Tawashi does not have direct command over astro. His security clearance and authority are not high enough. Dr. Elefun is higher.[/b]

Ah! You weren't clear enough, but you are hereby contradicting an hypothesis of my demonstration. It is true that you had said so since the first time you designed a chain of command. I read this one too fast and I misunderstood the order. Did you forget to tell that it broke my demonstration? :o
Ok, a broken demonstration needs reparations...
However, for the demonstration to be only repaired instead of totally rebuilt, we need an example of Dr. O'Shay disobeying an order from above. To my knowledge, there is no such example. I will try to find an example later, or eventually a new demonstration ;)
Congratulations Cybotron, you managed to break the demonstration by invalidating an hypothesis in the reasonning. I am just puzzled you haven't done so since the first time I showed it, hadn't you seen it? ;)


<!--QuoteBegin--cybotron
@Jun 26 2004, 06:02 PM
Science and math will not suffice as a means of control for a state.[/quote]
I was not speaking about means of control for a state, I was speaking about understanding the world. I understand that to control a state, good speaking is probably better than science, but if you want to understand the world, science is the ultimate way. Physics help you to assert rules that describe how the world works, they can be invalidated to be replaced by new better rules (ie Newton/Einstein). Mathematics is used to apply the rules and draw reasonnings.
The real sign that someone has become a fanatic is that he completely loses his sense of humor about some important facet of his life. When humor goes, it means he's lost his perspective.



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Postby fafner » 21 years ago

Let's consider an example in "robot land". I take this episode as an example not because there is a lovely dragon in it ( ;) ), but because there is an extremely interresting situation. Astro knows that robots are used as slaves. The problem is that he has no proof at all. Dr. Elefun seems to believe Astro, but has not even witnessed the facts. So he is forced to withdraw from the robot island, bringing Astro with him.
It is interresting to note that Dr. Elefun has not given Astro any order to act, only an implicit order not to act by withdrawing himself. Without proof he can't do anything. However, Astro decides to act against laws, justice procedures, and orders, he disobeyes an implicit order of Dr. Elefun (Astro knew what thought Dr.Elefun).

Now let's talk about version 1.1 of "Astro's not a government agent" theorem :P
For Astro being a government agent, he needs a hyerarchic superior. Obviously, it can only be Dr. Elefun (or O'Shay). So it is necessary that Astro follow any order Dr. Elefun gives him.
In "robot land", Astro brings to Dr.Elefun's knowledge the facts he just witnessed. Dr.Elefun goes to the robot island and finds no proof. Because of that he can't take any action. Astro knows that Dr.Elefun can't do anything and decides to go back to the robot island. He gets caught, and this put Dr.Elefun in the very bad situation of risking his job at the ministery of science.

Is it the normal behaviour of an agent to act without order, thus violating the law, and moreover putting his hyerarchic superior into sever troubles? ;)

Astro is not loyal to any form of government. It is especially evident in this episode that his behaviour is driven by compassion and not by loyalty. During the night after Dr.Elefun and Astro withdraw from the robot island, Astro's mind is captivated by the voices of the victimes of the robot island. He wants to stop their sufferings, and this forces him to act. No laws, no orders, only compassion ;)
The real sign that someone has become a fanatic is that he completely loses his sense of humor about some important facet of his life. When humor goes, it means he's lost his perspective.



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Postby cybotron » 21 years ago

Your Hypothesis would be valid except for the apocalyptic subroutines.
Whoever departs from the interspatial progams Rich in Dharma quickly dissapates, and never attains Fatar, (ie. The Originator, The Creative State) The D'jinn Lusting after Dharma would seek to have knowledge of Arjun,Isa,Om,Jesus and Rik. They would do this in order to procure the Love spells of the The Necronomicon Eros Kama. But thats just a Boy seeing his chance.
But Astro cannot depart from the prime directives that are from a greater authority than Dr.Elefun. If Elefun is too contrary, to the directives of the Fatar then Astro will disregard the orders of Dr.Elefun, and according to a Subroutine of the Great old Ones, The Architects of the Teknostructure and the Linguistics Creator. If Dr. Elefun became too Contrary Astro might have to even employ the advanced weapons against the will of Dr. Elefun. Even against the Teknostructures of Dr.Elefun if those Teknostructures produce too great a distortion in his
fidelity circuit. Negative feedback reduces distortion in a sound system. If Elefun became an electromagnetic manifestation of !00% distortion in Astro's fidelity circuit, Astro would remove Dr.Elefun in the automatic Rectification of distortion that takes place by negative feedback. And this could lead to Dr.Elefuns injury or death by Photon weapons. He would never therefore press his disapproval to Astros actions in the final anaysis. But Astro might be taking count of all the elements involved in the acts to erase the Creators directives, because Dr. Elefun did not remove Astro's Tobio memory inserts that were put there by Dr.Boyton. Point being, that in the Anime, Boyton is the Creator... Dr. Elefun created the Image Uran device in hopes of attaining more control over Astro.
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