Atom and the AI kid

[jeffbert]

I will provide a few examples of Atom's being helpless.

Ok, The Robot Circus, 60s or 80s. He was helpless, Cybotron. Despite all his power, he lacked the will to oppose his master.

80s: Robot Land. He exhausted his energy, and was helpless.

nyah, Cybotron!

[dragon_child888]

i agre he has been helpless at times but there is no debate over that astro is able to create destruction and havoc if he wanted to, fortunately he dosent, so he wont... also with the link from Here

Originally posted by jeffbert@Jun 8 2004, 12:13 PM
Ok, so in this instance, they are helpless. Now tell us why they are puppets.
I know I should stick to one point, but I can think of a few instances when despite his power, Atom was helpless. I will try to provide a few examples, but in the correct thread: Atom and the AI kid

David i believe his name is? (i realy havent watched it) was used to replace a dead (am i right?) son of a family. does this not make him a sort pupet to make them feel beter? are not robots used to benefit humans?

[jeffbert]

David i believe his name is? (i realy havent watched it) was used to replace a dead (am i right?) son of a family. does this not make him a sort pupet to make them feel beter?

No more a puppet than Atom, Dorothy (Big O), Eimi-chan (Nuku Nuku), or any other artificial human.

[fafner]

Originally posted by jeffbert@Jun 8 2004, 04:23 AM
I will provide a few examples of Atom's being helpless.

Ok, The Robot Circus, 60s or 80s. He was helpless, Cybotron. Despite all his power, [b] he lacked the will to oppose his master.

80s: Robot Land. He exhausted his energy, and was helpless.

nyah, Cybotron![/b]

So you think Astro exhausted his energy only in Robot Land? He exhausted his energy so many times I lost count ! The White Planet and Fight the Aliens come immediately to my mind, but I remember thinking many times "again out of energy???"

About being helpless from lack of will, it looks like Astro is helpless with people he actually knows but have sometime bad behaviour towards him. He was helpless against the circus master because he had a kind of moral contract towards him. He is also helpless against Alvin (80s series only), after all, Alvin is his classmate, he decently can't punch him to the moon

[jeffbert]

So you think Astro exhausted his energy only in Robot Land?

I said nothing aboutthat episode being the only example. I first mentioned the Robot Circus; thus giving a few examples.

Anyway, I agree that exhausting his energy was used too many times as a crucial plot element. It is as though he was totally unaware of the looming exhaustion, until he had only about ten seconds remaining. In Lily on Peligro Island, he is aware of his energy status, and makes reference to it more than once. In the new series, he has an HUD, but I think he still opens his chest to check the remaining energy.

[cybotron]

Originally posted by jeffbert@Jun 8 2004, 11:23 AM
I will provide a few examples of Atom's being helpless.

Ok, The Robot Circus, 60s or 80s. He was helpless, Cybotron. Despite all his power, [b] he lacked the will to oppose his master.

80s: Robot Land. He exhausted his energy, and was helpless.

nyah, Cybotron![/b]

:wacko:


Now Jeffbert, you know very well this argument is nonsense. AI and his ilk are helpless while fully charged! Astro, like any highpowered weapon, needs reloading. Astro when fully charged has 100,000 horsepower...
AI can carry his teddy. As for his sexbot buddy, we better not speak of it. B)

[jeffbert]

Having all the power in the universes is meaningless, unless you have the will to use it, Cybotron. Just look at France after WWI. When Germany was late with repairations payment, France occupied the Ruhr (Rhur?). But when Germany defied the V Treaty by rebuilding its armed forces, France did nothing, and that pattern repeated again and again, resulting in WWII. How could they build U boats secretly? They did not. The French had to have some provision for verifying compliance with the treaty, but were apathetic.

Which is least respectible? Two guys are mugged and beaten, one had the physical abilty to defend himself, but lacked the will to use it. The other guy had the will, but lacked the ability.

David was not supposed to fly, shoot bullets from his backside, etc. Why should you expect him to do so? Tenma's desire to recreate his son became overshadowed by his desire to create a powerful robot. Thus, Atom became more than a cute little robot boy, he became the littlest super hero. His honoring his father/creator's contract with the Ringmaster was dependant upon his devaluing himself from a person to an object. He knew he could crush the Ringmaster, he knew he could walk away, but chose to remain. Thus, he admitted that he was subject to ownership by a human. This was likely a lingering from the shock and depression from being rejected and sold. In the 60s the circus caught fire, he saved everybody, but was rewarded with neither thanks nor freedom. Likewise, in the 80s, he saves everybody after the other robots go beserk, and his status remains unchanged. He was helpless to employ his power for his own needs. In the 80s as Alvin is assulting Atom's papa, Atom appears to be on the verge of attaking Alvin. Papa reminds him of his duty. Is his inabilty to act for his own benefits the result of programming or learning?

In the new series, he is falling to his doom, unaware of his power, until the desire to save himself translates into flight. He in later episodes indirectly attacks humans by causing rocks to fall on their location, thus they flee. His self-restraint in this delemma is obvious. The robots wanted nothing more than to live in Robotia peacefully, but the humans would have none of it. Just as Pharoah wanted the Ch. Heston as Moses and the other Hebrews returned to servitude, and the Roman Emperor wanted Kirk Douglas as Sparticus and the other escaped slaves returned to slavery, so the humans wanted the robots returned to servitude and subjection to arbitrary cruelty.

He points his fingers at some overhanging rocks, fully aware that if the humans do not move quickly they will be crushed. Yet he sweeps the rock with a laser beam, violating his own conscience. It matters not that he was ready to rescue any humans who moved too slowly to save themselves. This action distinguishes him from other robots, who are incapable of such actions. Thus, he has become human in that the black and white, binary ones and zeroes have been circumvented by fuzzy logic. As long as no humans are harmed, he may act against them.

So, as far as Atom and David are concerned, we must ask, which Atom? There is no one Atom, there are many. Atom evolved on the many pages of manga and over fifty years all told. Yet, several things were constant:

Judging by his actions, we can say that

• He could not harm or allow humans to come to harm*
• He believed in justice: one law for all intelligent beings, biological and electro-mechanical*

*Atom's adherance to these changed over time, especailly in the new series. Yet, he did adhere, but his ideas of what that involved changed. In the manga & 80s anime, he allows a human to die. But because mr greedy was intent upon taking Ivan's diamonds, and resisted Atom's attempts to get him to flee. Atom, thus can allow human to come to harm, if their wills are thus involved. He would not force the man into the rescue ship.

[cybotron]

Originally posted by jeffbert@Jun 10 2004, 12:48 AM

• He could not harm or allow humans to come to harm*
• He believed in justice: one law for all intelligent beings, biological and electro-mechanical*

*Atom's adherance to these changed over time, especailly in the new series.  Yet, he did adhere, but his ideas of what that involved changed. In the manga & 80s anime, he allows a human to die. But because mr greedy was intent upon taking Ivan's diamonds, and resisted Atom's attemptsto get him to flee. Atom, thus can allow human to come to harm, if their wills are thus involved. He would not force the man into the rescue ship.

Nonsense.... :wacko:

Those are human beings that Astro is hitting?
The madness of pre-WWII Europe is hardly germane to the issue. The level of force applied is directly proportional to the amount of resistance to the program. We have nuclear weapons, but we don't use them... They are there as a threat and deterant. You are right as far as you can see there are several Astros. Have you ever seen Astro strike a man?
Astro can shatter steel and stone. Is this picture false advertising? :wahah:
Astro is an instrument of the state. Imagine such a device in the hands of the idiot Gestapo being used to maintain the fascist Nazi state. Or even the colonialist imperialist french state. These States were doomed because they were contrary to the program that is at the root of Astros
matrix. Astro celebrates Xmas... Or did you notice? The Astro world is not Mosaic or Pharaonic. in nature. Moses was an outlaw fugitive. Astro is an agent of the State. An agent of the Ultra Elite I.O.S. The Institute of Science. Sure he fights to prevent the abuse of the slaves (read,robots),
but he maintains the status quo through the threat of force.
AI is a fugitive running for his life.

[jeffbert]

Once again, your reply shows a lack of coherence. I use Moses and Sparticus as examples, not as evidence, and you attack them. B) As far as my statement about Atom harming humans, I should perhaps qualify it. By harm, I mean seriously injure or kill. While you are correct that he does punch them in some cases, and again, here the 3 anime and 30+ years of manga add some confusion (for lack of a better word) to the argument. My best memories are of the 80s series as a whole, and I stick to my statement regarding harming humans. I could be wrong, but I cannot think of one incidence in the 80s series in which Atom seriously injures a human. But consider the new series, and I do not know if you have seen the whole thing. While I cannot remember any incidents of Atom harming humans in it, I do remember a few times toward the end of the series, in which one could clearly see his wanting to fight humans, but restraining himself. There is the incident with the laser and the overhanging rock that I already mentioned.

You state "Astro is an agent of the State." Please go further and say why this is so. Just because he is under Dr. O, does not mean he obeys every order. He is not an asset, tool, or agent, but one who offers his help when he believes in the cause. Ok, he also accepts assignments, but this is also subject to his own judgement. An agent does not have this option, unless he wants to lose his job. But as Atom is not under contract, he uses his own judgement.

"AI is a fugitive running for his life."

By whose definition is he a fugitive? It was not for an act of evil that he gained the status of fugitive. He was innocent of any wrong doing, the victim of a human being's sudden recovery from illness. Thus, he was no longer needed, wanted, or even tolerated. So he was a fugitive, and what of it?


But that is far from the topic, my friend. Atom was just as helpless as David; for despite his great power, he could not use it to free himself from servitude to the Ringmaster in manga 6-8, 1960s or 1980s anime. In the new series, he was just as helplessly bound to adherence to the Robot Laws.

[cybotron]

Again your penchant for chaotic analysis taints your argument. Astro was sold to the circus and so at that time was not owned by the State, but was a circus performer. The 80's Astro was never shown in the United States so we speak here of the 60's original and '03 interpretation. Astro was used as a gladiator,fighting other robots, and refused to destroy his defeated foes.
Astro was freed by a sort of Robot emancipation act and was taken by Dr. Elefun into the I.O.S. once there, he acted in the enforcement and investigation arm of the institute alongside the police and armed forces.
The police Chief in the '03 comes to Dr.O and says, " please send Astro on this case." Dr.O refuses, and tell's Tawashi that Astro is in school playing with children his own age. But Denkou goes looking for Astro. And I've allllready said too much. "The meek shall inherit the earth." Apples are not oranges... AI does not equal Astro.
Also you do not know how being an agent at the level of Astro works. B)
One may freely refuse operations. One may veto operations without explanation. One may initiate operations without explanation. But this is at certain levels of intelligence not all levels. What you see is Astro acting at such a level. Dr. O in the episode "one million mamoth snails" rebuked Tawashi for calling him and questioning Astro's authority. I remember that I came into the forum on Easter morning to stream the "Crown of Solomon" program and was instantly attacked because I mentioned God. The diatribe against me was horrific. The guy that initiated that attack knew nothing of Astro. The base of Astro's programming has a Xmasian moral subroutine and if one has no understanding of that, then one can never understand Astro's motivation or the instruction being conveyed. I told you before that you were watching a program and instruction being inserted into the nursery of the warrior class. It's obvious you still don't know what you are watching, and you don't understand these communications.
These are the communications of the Isanagi and Isanami Cyber Ninja. Put in place to educate and indoctrinate those charged with the defense of the hive. Astro is in fact a Soma or ambrosial... A honey as it were.
As royal jelly is given to certain of the Bees and they become sexual, so certain stimuli is fed into the collective nursery and it produces warrior or soldier class. Astro is part of that stimuli. In fact, the movie "Soldier" with Kurt Russel is a perfect example.


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