Kimba/Simba

[DrFrag]

In Australia there's a free-to-air TV station called SBS that focuses on foreign material. As well as news feeds in many languages from around the world, they show a lot of foreign movies (and anime B) ).

In a recent ad, they showed a whole bunch of foreign movie titles, then below each one the name of the Hollywood rip-off. At the end the voice over said that by watching SBS you can see the originals of all the Hollywood releases.

The American movie industry makes some good stuff (as well as a massive amount of crap), but their primary interest is in making money, not art. It's rare for them to take a chance on a new concept because of the financial risk, so they produce sequal after sequal and re-make foreign works. And comic-book adaption, anyone? Creatively, they're an empty shell (like the computer game industry at the moment). Business executives are not artists.
The Lion King was pretty much guaranteed to be a success, because the formula had worked with Kimba. Not to mention it was yet another animated kid's movie for parents to take the family to during the holidays. Check out the US all time box office takings for the genre:
3. Shrek 2 ($441m)
13. Finding Nemo ($339m)
15. The Lion King ($328m)
27. Shrek ($267m)
29. The Incredibles ($261m)
30. Dr Seuss' How The Grinch Stole Christmas ($260m)
32. Monsters Inc. ($255m)
36. Toy Story 2 ($245m)
51. Aladdin ($217m)
67. Madagascar ($192m)
68. Toy Story ($191m)
Not to mention the merchandise...

Imagine how great it would have been for Tezuka and the anime industry if they'd actually called it Kimba the White Lion. It would have been just as appealing, with the addition of a pre-existing fan base and a DVD series to remarket.

Of course, that would have meant paying royalties. :angry:

[jeffbert]

Originally posted by DrFrag@Oct 3 2005, 11:25 PM
Imagine how great it would have been for Tezuka and the anime industry if they'd actually called it Kimba the White Lion. It would have been just as appealing, with the addition of a pre-existing fan base and a DVD series to remarket.

Of course, that would have meant paying royalties. :angry:

& securing the rights to use it also. But as Disney has essentailly retold the story albiet with some changes to it, but used different names-- hey, is that what the Christian group did with the sequel or was it the second Jungle Emperor Leo series, to which they secured the rights, but failed to secure the rights to the English names?

Anyway, if we consider that with regards to Kimba, there are two separate sets of rights:

1. to the original material (held by Mushi and it successor company)
2. to the English names (Held by NBC)

Disney would have needed to secure rights to both before proceeding. However, by Disney's thinking (it being a multi-billion $ giant), it would have been far easier to fight any lawsuits brought by Tezuka Co. than by NBC. So, they went with borrowing material, plot lines, etc, but avoided using the Americanized names, & got away with it. <_<

[O2Destroyer]

*sighs*

I actually think similarities are overstated here. While the setting is clearly VERY much inspired by Kimba, the story is NOT. It is also possible that some people working on the project didn't know about Kimba. While there certainly was deception by the end of it, the intentions of the artists and storywriters seems entirely innocent to me--well, that is if we consider Tezuka innocent when he heavily based his Jungle Emperor story off of Bambi.

The problem is seperating the people who made Lion King from the corporate Disney who are clearly going to do whatever they have to do to defend their business. When we get to this level, we've really moved beyond ethics, and they aren't going to confirm that artists intentionally included a homage to another company if that could get them sued. Really, it would be naive to assume that the business end of Disney would do anything else.

As far as all the ideas robbed from the east (notably Kurosawa's influence on Italian westerns (nevermind the magnificient seven)), let's not forget how influential High Noon was on Kurosawa (yes, that's right, Fistfull of Dollars is a western inspired by a samurai movie inspired by a western). Cross fertilization indeed.

But back to Lion King, seriously, I am no fan of this movie at all. The plot and characters have nothing at all to do with Kimba/Tezuka. There's more of a shakespere thing going on in this movie, only it isn't so convincing. I think once you get past a few scenes that look similar, and the same cast of animals (ooh, evil hyenas), you'll see the plots have very little at all in common. Keep in mind, Lion King is not much more than a simple revenge story.

[DrFrag]

I wonder how Matthew Broderick got the idea he was going to be voicing a Kimba movie. They either mentioned Kimba to him, or the story/characters were similar enough that he came to that conclusion on his own.

[jeffbert]

Originally posted by O2Destroyer@Oct 6 2005, 06:57 AM
*sighs*

I actually think similarities are overstated here.  While the setting is clearly VERY much inspired by Kimba, the story is NOT.  It is also possible that some people working on the project didn't know about Kimba.  While there certainly was deception by the end of it, the intentions of the artists and storywriters seems entirely innocent to me--well, that is if we consider Tezuka innocent when he heavily based his Jungle Emperor story off of Bambi.

The problem is seperating the people who made Lion King from the corporate Disney who are clearly going to do whatever they have to do to defend their business.  When we get to this level, we've really moved beyond ethics, and they aren't going to confirm that artists intentionally included a homage to another company if that could get them sued.  Really, it would be naive to assume that the business end of Disney would do anything else.

As far as all the ideas robbed from the east (notably Kurosawa's influence on Italian westerns (nevermind the magnificient seven)), let's not forget how influential High Noon was on Kurosawa (yes, that's right, Fistfull of Dollars is a western inspired by a samurai movie inspired by a western).  Cross fertilization indeed.

But back to Lion King, seriously, I am no fan of this movie at all.  The plot and characters have nothing at all to do with Kimba/Tezuka.  There's more of a shakespere thing going on in this movie, only it isn't so convincing.  I think once you get past a few scenes that look similar, and the same cast of animals (ooh, evil hyenas), you'll see the plots have very little at all in common.  Keep in mind, Lion King is not much more than a simple revenge story.

In regards to High Noon inspiring Yojimbo, I have seen both films, & cannot recall any similarities between them. Yojimbo was a Ronin playing both sides in a local gang struggle against each other. I do not see Gary Cooper's law man doing that. I cannot think of even 1 scene in High Noon that was unique (something not so utterly common that it would not be a common element in many other films) that was featured in Yojimbo. I think Kurosawa was inspired not by the specific story's plot elements (at least he did not borrow them), but by the Western genre itself. If anything, the lone gunfighter became the lone Samurai. The 1 guy who goes up against the establishment, or supposedly unbeatable opponents. In the case of Yojimbo the seeminly unbeatable opponent was composed of two warring gangs, each trying to eliminate the other, but do so at a minimal cost to itself. How did that come from High Noon?


Regarding those few scenes that you talk about in your 4th paragraph, They are more than just similar, they are identical. The lion cub hanging off the cliff while the usurper watches and enjoys his expected demise. Nevermind that the one was a female lion while the other was the usurper himself. I could describe the other scenes, but if you are already familiar with them (as you seem to be) doing so would be pointless. B)

[fafner]

Originally posted by jeffbert@Oct 6 2005, 07:08 PM
Regarding those few scenes that you talk about in your 4th paragraph, They are more than just similar, they are identical. The lion cub hanging off the cliff while the usurper watches and enjoys his expected demise. Nevermind that the one was a female lion while the other was the usurper himself. I could describe the other scenes, but if you are already familiar with them (as you seem to be) doing so would be pointless. B)

I think O2Destroyer was focusing more on the scenario than the scenes.
Too bad I am not familiar with Kimba's scenario ( yeah I know, it's a shame ), otherwise I could have thrown my 2 cents here

[O2Destroyer]

I agree that it is hard to see the connection between High Noon and Kurosawa's work, and it is more that he has admitted to the influence and that there is considerable evidence to 'cross polination' across several countries. While Fistfull of Dollars certainly is an almost carbon copy of Yojimbo (and not nearly as good), the Italian western scene as a whole profited from the influence (just as Japanese cinema profited from western influence). There is certainly no Great Silence without Yojimbo, but there are no stolen scenes either.

And yes, you are right. I'm talking about the scenarios. I think the stolen scenes are evident, and I'm sure if we cut out all the corporate disney crap and asked the animators/artists/writers about it, they would have no problem admitting to the HOMAGE. It is big business BS that has turned this into a fiasco, not the animators. Despite the scenes, Lion King is NOT Kimba, as the former includes none of Tezuka's grander themes from that work.

I guess what set me off here was the idea we could change a few names and Lion King would be Kimba. Rather this would be even more outrageous! Here we'd have a work that lost all the heart and soul of Kimba but kept only some of the familar names and faces. Kimba set off to create an idea society for animals, Simba decided after much deliberation to seek revenge. I think more people would be upset that Kimba had been dumbed down to this, than are upset now at a few 'stolen' scenes, that were things different, might rightfully be acknowledged as homages.

In fact, if we are going to be upset over something it is the very likelihood that if the copyright crap could be put aside for a moment, not only would Tezuka have probably been thanked in the end credits, the film might have been dedicated to him. I think what is worth being upset about is that while people like John Lassiter are happy to admit that Miyazaki is one of the greatest living crafters of animated film, Disney as a corporate entity has farted arount for over a decade in both admitting this and then finally allowing his films over here.

OK, so too many words, but I think saying 'Disney ripped off Tezuka' is just way too simple. It misses the real problem and seperation between the creators of animated work and the suits who have to tell us that no one at Disney ever even heard of Kimba.

[O2Destroyer]

Originally posted by fafner@Oct 7 2005, 04:45 AM

Too bad I am not familiar with Kimba's scenario ( yeah I know, it's a shame ), otherwise I could have thrown my 2 cents here

Fortunately for you that Kimba set is coming out with all 50+ episodes. In the lack of the Jungle Emperor manga, that seems a good way to go (the Rhino series was only 25 episodes or so, and hadn't been cleaned up at all.)

[jeffbert]

Originally posted by O2Destroyer+Oct 6 2005, 10:00 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (O2Destroyer @ Oct 6 2005, 10:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--fafner@Oct 7 2005, 04:45 AM

Too bad I am not familiar with Kimba's scenario ( yeah I know, it's a shame ), otherwise I could have thrown my 2 cents here

Fortunately for you that Kimba set is coming out with all 50+ episodes. In the lack of the Jungle Emperor manga, that seems a good way to go (the Rhino series was only 25 episodes or so, and hadn't been cleaned up at all.)[/b][/quote]
I have no disagreement with what you say in either of your 2 most recent posts, except this:

Actually, from what I read, the 60s series suffered from too much influence from NBC, to be called an accurate retelling of the Jungle Emperor manga. However, as I understand it, the film was more like Tezuka's ieda for the animated version even though he was not alive to have any control over it, than the series we call KTWL.

Manga

1965

1989

movie (1997)

After seeing the 1st 1/2 of both series, the motion picture, & reading the website's description of the manga, I can now state that my opinion is correct. The movie was what the series should have been.

[O2Destroyer]

Sadly, my understanding of Jungle emperor is also constructed from watching the 60's series + the Jungle Emperor movie + reading websites. I think with the animated series you have to read between the lines. Tezuka's ideas are still there, but they are buried beneath tons of 'TV friendly' debris. And there is even a sense of continuity not present in the 80's astroboy series, but again, it is not overt in the slightest. You could see the episodes in random order and perhaps not notice, but it is there.

Again, without the comic being out, we're stuck with reading synopsis and inferring based on the new movie.