Has this ever happened to you?

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fafner
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Postby fafner » 22 years ago

Originally posted by DrFrag@May 12 2004, 07:00 AM
I think schizophrenia, extreme tiredness, and some drugs can all do this too.

Hmmm... that's not drugs ( I KNOW it isn't ;) )
Since my extrem sleepiness rarely last for more than 15-30 minutes it should not be extreme tiredness.
What's left? Let's see...
<counting very carefully on 3 fingers>
... schizophrenia?! N-no! I mean I'm not of course! Fafner is not a false name for another personality, it's my real name of course! :unsure: If it was not it would mean I'm sharing several personnalities, it would mean schizophrenia and I'm not!
Oh well, I see I am not convincing anyone here, including myself :wacko: It must be time to see a doctor, maybe even to go back to that establishment with "men in white" everywhere from where I broke out some time ago :P
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snorkyller
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Postby snorkyller » 22 years ago

[b]DrFrag: I was a borderline moderate/severe case, with 28 choking episodes an hour.
[...]
Personally I don't think I have sleep apnea, at least not as a primary condition. I have way too many symptoms (50+) and urine bioanalysis indicates Chronic Fatigue Syndrome [/b]


They thought about the Chronic Fatigue Syndrome for me. They finaly said that I can't have it because of the lack of symptoms except for fatigue and some others. They told me that CFS often begins with a health problem, often viral, which 'cause fatigue. The person have difficulty to get out of that and the fatigue becomes chronic, which cause the apparition of many others symptoms (because of the tiredness of the body).

Do you think it could be your case DrFrag? Can you remember being sick before the apparition of CFS? (I don't know, someting like really a big flu).

Another thing... Even if you don't have sleep apnea, I think that having "28 choking episodes an hour" certainly couldn't help you in your sleep. It can give you a less deep sleep. So if you don't have enough deep sleep, you may have to sleep longer (more hours). No?

I never had muscle pain for 2 days after an exercice. It exactly was one of the things that made the doctors think that I can't have CFS...

DrFrag: Diazapam (Vallium) helps me a lot, but it really should do the opposite since it's a muscle relaxant and sleep apnoea is caused by muscles of the throat collapsing. Another mystery.
[/b]


Exactly the same for me!!! :o :wahah: But for me it was clonazepam... No only it's a muscle relaxant but it's an anti-convulsion. It was created to treat epilepsy and now it's used for other thing like anxiety. This drug is a mystery for me... Why is it helping me since 3 years while they tried many other similar drugs which doesn't helped. I often have convulsions while I sleep which wake me up ; more and more often after 4:00. So I wonder if it's because the effect of the drug is ending (7 hours). I wonder why I have such convulsion while sleeping.

Unfortunately, doctors doesn't seems to answer such questions... They seem to think that only the machine (the tests...) can aswer everything. They don't seems to think that they can find many thing by themself...

Anyway, sorry for talking so much about that, I'm just frustrated that I could do nothing... :(

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Postby DrFrag » 22 years ago

Originally posted by fafner@May 13 2004, 02:41 AM
... schizophrenia?! N-no! I mean I'm not of course! Fafner is not a false name for another personality, it's my real name of course! :unsure: If it was not it would mean I'm sharing several personnalities, it would mean schizophrenia and I'm not!

You're thinking of Multiple Personality Disorder. That's different from Schizophrenia.

[b]snorkyller:They thought about the Chronic Fatigue Syndrome for me. They finaly said that I can't have it because of the lack of symptoms except for fatigue and some others. They told me that CFS often begins with a health problem, often viral, which 'cause fatigue. The person have difficulty to get out of that and the fatigue becomes chronic, which cause the apparition of many others symptoms (because of the tiredness of the body).[/b]


Yeah, it's a tricky one because it's a syndrome. Usually the diagnosis is made by eliminating everything else. The first time I had it, it took four years to get a diagnosis. :cry:

Do you think it could be your case DrFrag? Can you remember being sick before the apparition of CFS? (I don't know, someting like really a big flu).


Yeah, a severe flu went around at work in early February 2001. People were off work for up to two weeks. I got it and never really recovered. I went into a decline and was unable to work by June.
I also had it as a teenager from 1990-1996, but the onset was very gradual and not triggered by a viral infection. I had a slightly different set of symptoms then (more abdominal pain, no headaches). It's thought there may be six or seven different strains. Most people I've known had it triggered by Glandular Fever.

Another thing... Even if you don't have sleep apnea, I think that having "28 choking episodes an hour" certainly couldn't help you in your sleep. It can give you a less deep sleep. So if you don't have enough deep sleep, you may have to sleep longer (more hours). No?


Perhaps, but then more sleep should make me feel more rested. When they did the first test I slept 13 hours and they thought that was unusually long, so I'm not sure people with Sleep Apnoea sleep longer to make up for shallow sleep. Also, I wake up exhaused whether I get 8 or 28 hours sleep. The difference is if I don't get enough sleep I end up with massive abdominal pain.

I never had muscle pain for 2 days after an exercice. It exactly was one of the things that made the doctors think that I can't have CFS...


You saw where I was coming from! :D It's an odd delayed symptom that most people with CFS get but I've never heard of it outside of CFS, so it can be a good indicator.

Exactly the same for me!!! But for me it was clonazepam... No only it's a muscle relaxant but it's an anti-convulsion. It was created to treat epilepsy and now it's used for other thing like anxiety. This drug is a mystery for me... Why is it helping me since 3 years while they tried many other similar drugs which doesn't helped. I often have convulsions while I sleep which wake me up ; more and more often after 4:00. So I wonder if it's because the effect of the drug is ending (7 hours). I wonder why I have such convulsion while sleeping.


That is so weird. In 2002 I was really sick and had convulsions in my sleep every night. Enough to wake me up or accidently hit my wife in my sleep. The paramedics immediately thought it was epilepsy. They shot me up in both legs with medazalan and it still wouldn't stop. But the weird thing is I could stop it by standing or sitting up or concentrating really hard. Obviously I couldn't do any of these things while asleep! They gave me an EEG in hospital which came back abnormal but nothing they'd seen before. It definately wasn't epilepsy - you can't stop that by concentrating. I got put on the waiting list for the sleep clinic, and in the meantime I went on diazepam (which is very similar to clonazepam). It helped a lot but I only take it once a week to avoid building up a tolerance or dependence. So whenever I want to have a good day. :D
I moved house and my health improved enough that I didn't notice any convulsions. Then while I was being tested by the sleep clinic they accidently picked up Sleep Apnoea. They decided they'd better treat that before doing any more testing so it wouldn't complicate things. That saga went on for two years until I gave up, so I'm still no better off. They couldn't continue the testing for the convulsions with Sleep Apnoea still showing up.
One thing I know for sure - I never had this problem in the years that I didn't have CFS. So I'm not too worried - when the CFS goes I'm positive the sleep problems will go with it.

There's still the unsolved mystery of the convulsions though. It's not listed as a symptom of CFS or Sleep Apnoea. I suspect it's made worse during times when my general health is worse, but that doesn't tell me much.

Hey, have you had an EEG? (brain scan)

Unfortunately, doctors doesn't seems to answer such questions... They seem to think that only the machine (the tests...) can aswer everything. They don't seems to think that they can find many thing by themself...

Anyway, sorry for talking so much about that, I'm just frustrated that I could do nothing...


It's good to vent. :) When you have something complicated the doctors don't have time for you. It takes a lot of research that is usually left up to the patient. :(
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Starlight
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Postby Starlight » 22 years ago

Hi Louis 74,

I've had some experiences when I wake up in the middle of the night and turn my light on and then get up and walk around in the house, and then strange things start to happen and then I am dreaming that I wake up, I am not really awake. So I wake up again- except that time, even though it seems real, it is not. Then I wake up again for real, and the light is real, and sound and feeling are real.

I think I may also have had sleep paralysis before too where I can't get up when I want to.

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Postby Strange Wings » 22 years ago

Hi Starlight

Yeah, these are scary experiences we're going through. Not to know what's real and the inability to move and even to breathe sometimes really evokes unpleasant feelings.
It seems like you went through a very intense wake/dream experience; if I understand you correctly you were able to move but you couldn't tell if you're dreaming or awake.

I can't remember if that ever has happened to me, but at the beginning of that year I went through some sleep-paralyses which really nailed me to the bed. I heard strange noises, saw moving shadows and heard the sound of my own breath. I guess those paralyses always had last for about ten seconds till I finally managed to wake up.
Fortunately I've had quiet nights for the last five months yet.

I remember a horrible case of a woman who went through a surgical intestine operation
by full conciousness. She was filled with anaestetics so she couldn't move and not even speak to tell the surgeons that she's awake. She saw and witnessed her own operation and felt all the pain of it.
Somehow the anaestetics hadn't reached that parts of her brain which controlled the nerves and her conciousness.
After that operation she had to go through a lot of psycho-therapies to digest that trauma.
:(
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Postby jeffbert » 22 years ago

I've had some experiences when I wake up in the middle of the night and turn my light on and then get up and walk around in the house, and then strange things start to happen and then I am dreaming that I wake up, I am not really awake. So I wake up again- except that time, even though it seems real, it is not. Then I wake up again for real, and the light is real, and sound and feeling are real.

I think I may also have had sleep paralysis before too where I can't get up when I want to.


Please forgive me for this, I am not trying to make fun of your condition:

I remember a line from Stanly in and old Laurel & Hardy film. He was making an excuse for sleeping on the job. It went something like, "Well, Ollie, I was dreaming that I was awake, but when I woke up, I found me self asleep." :lol: While I found that funny, your description was terrifying. I have more physical problems than I can keep track of, most are ever-present, but a few seem to lie in wait, hoping to strike when I least expect it, or am least able to deal with it. :angry: Both of my hips are bad, one is bone against bone, the other is just plain painful, whether it is arthritic, I do not know. My left arm and leg exhibit involuntary movement, much of which is simply annoying, but sometimes it is quite serious. But the sheer terror of awakening unable to move, that would freak me out. Have you gotten used to it? or does it freak you out every time? :huh:
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Postby snorkyller » 22 years ago

[b]Dr Frag:    Hey, have you had an EEG? (brain scan)[/b]


They made an EEG while I was sleeping in each of my 2 sleep test I had (I had none when I'm awake). They saw in the EEG that my sleep have a strange and abnormal structure. No deep sleep, no rem sleep and too much alpha waves... What is strange is that they just send the results on a paper with these abnormal things listed to my doctor, but they didn't do nothing to find why I have it... I really can't understand that... :angry: :(

So if I understood you well, you had convulsions while asleep but the convulsions remained there after you awaked??? Strange...

For me, the convulsions stop when I wake up. I have the feeling that it's like an alarm triggered to awake me... as if something is going wrong when I'm asleep... as if my brain detect something that is dangerous for me. So it make me wake up by the convulsions.

I can't understand why the doctors don't wonder about these convulsions. It's surely because they never saw it by themself or by a test. Of course 'cause it occurs only while I'm asleep!!! And I didn't have it while the sleep test... Not surprising: I can have it once a week. So in a sleep test, there's a big chance I wouldn't have it. But if I say them that "I start to shake while I'm asleep, and that I can't control that", don't they can jusr believe me?! Of course not... They don't give a sh*t of what I say :angry: They only trust the machine used to make the tests.

[b]Dr Frag:   There's still the unsolved mystery of the convulsions though. It's not listed as a symptom of CFS or Sleep Apnoea[/b]


Strange, because I made many searchs on the web and I saw many times that people who have apnea wake up "with a start". I talked to some of them in a forum (http://www.sleepnet.com) and many told me that it's exactly like having convulsions.

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Postby DrFrag » 22 years ago

[b]snorkyller: They made an EEG while I was sleeping in each of my 2 sleep test I had (I had none when I'm awake). They saw in the EEG that my sleep have a strange and abnormal structure. No deep sleep, no rem sleep and too much alpha waves... [/b]


That is strange. They probably don't know what to do. I did a bit of Google searching and I found this:

It is documented that over 70 percent of fibromyalgia patients have alpha waves intruding into the delta wave sleep hundreds of times during the night, compared to only 10-15 percent of those without this disorder. This intrusion can startle a person awake, cause constant tossing and turning, muscle spasms, or opening of the eyes. After time, it keeps a person from falling into a deep sleep, or REM.

Not suggesting you have fibromyalgia, but it sounds like there's a connection between the alpha waves and muscle spasms. And an absence deep sleep will leave you exhausted.
My EEG was done while awake. I can't remember what the report said, but they made specific reference to alpha waves. They testing me in lots of states, like eyes open/closed, flashing light goggles, etc.

[b]snorkyller: So if I understood you well, you had convulsions while asleep but the convulsions remained there after you awaked??? Strange...[/b]


When it was bad, it would start a few seconds before falling asleep and last a few minutes after waking up. An ambulance was called once when it lasted an hour after waking up. I had my wife watching while I was asleep, and she said I didn't ever convulse the entire night, but anything from 10 minutes to 5 hours on a bad night.

When you fall asleep, your brain shuts down in stages. ie, your memory shuts down before your consciousness does, which is why people don't remember falling asleep.
Anyway, what I think what was happening was the convulsions were starting as I reached a semi-conscious stage. I actually knew I was about to fall asleep in a few seconds because the convulsions would start. So maybe it was to do with a specific part of my brain. It would also explain how I could stop it by concentrating - that's extra brain activity. Probably beta or higher, but I'm no expert. I wish there was more information around on brain wave problems.
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Postby snorkyller » 22 years ago

So maybe it was to do with a specific part of my brain. It would also explain how I could stop it by concentrating - that's extra brain activity. Probably beta or higher, but I'm no expert. I wish there was more information around on brain wave problems.


It seems logical to me...

It is documented that over 70 percent of fibromyalgia patients have alpha waves intruding into the delta wave sleep hundreds of times during the night, compared to only 10-15 percent of those without this disorder. This intrusion can startle a person awake, cause constant tossing and turning, muscle spasms, or opening of the eyes. After time, it keeps a person from falling into a deep sleep, or REM.


Yeah???? I didn't know that alpha waves intrusion could be significant... The first sleep doctor said that it was abnormal so he sent me to a neurologist who said that it's not so abnormal after all and he finally do as if the alpha waves intrusion wasn't there...

I don't now why I don't have deep sleep. But I know that I'm always tired. And to me it's logical to be tired if you don't have deep sleep (!!! ;) . And it seems to me that when you didn't find anything and you don't know what to do since 3 years (my doctors) and you finaly find an abnormality like alpha waves intrusion, you should automatically search about that and consider this abnormality as a potential cause of the absence of deep sleep.... Well, it's not the case... I would understand my doctors... They always say that they can't do nothing 'cause everything is normal in my test, but when they find something abnormal, they ignore it...

About the fibromyalgia (or CFS), I'm happy that my doctors didn't thought that I could have it : I would have never accepted that 'cause it's a "syndrome"... You know: a syndrome is something that doctors are unable to explain. So when you have it, doctors surely always say to you things like : "We can't do anything. We can't help you 'cause you have a syndrome". So, you still always sick but nobody can help you as if the entire health system wasn't there...
Do you feel sometime like that Dr Frag, since you have CFS?

But... I'm pretty much in that situation. In fact, I'm feeling pretty much like that... even if I have not a syndrome... Well, I think that "having nothing" when you're sick is not a better situation, probably 'cause I don't know what the hell I have...

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Postby DrFrag » 22 years ago

Originally posted by snorkyller@May 15 2004, 06:42 AM
About the fibromyalgia (or CFS), I'm happy that my doctors didn't thought that I could have it : I would have never accepted that 'cause it's a "syndrome"... You know: a syndrome is something that doctors are unable to explain. So when you have it, doctors surely always say to you things like : "We can't do anything. We can't help you 'cause you have a syndrome". So, you still always sick but nobody can help you as if the entire health system wasn't there...
Do you feel sometime like that Dr Frag, since you have CFS?

Absolutely. There's a bunch of things you can try to relieve symptoms, but it's pretty much a waiting game to get better. No known cause, no known cure. At least there aren't as many doctors around now who say it doesn't even exist.

IMO, not having a diagnoses is worse. I hope things work out for you.

http://www.sleepnet.com/rest3/messages/618.html
http://www.sleepnet.com/rest3/messages/106.html

From what I can find, it sounds like not much is known about alpha wave intrusion except that it disrupts the sleep. I can't even find out if it's a condition or a symptom. The clonazepam seems like a really good option though, AFAIK it's very safe as far as drugs go. Another possibility may be low-dose antidepressants, but of course I am no doctor (despite my username! ;) .
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