The Death of Sigfried "The Gotterdamerung"

[jeffbert]

Tenma is an obvious metaphor for God the creator.

If it is so, perhaps you would care to state why it is so.

[cybotron]

Originally posted by jeffbert@Jun 22 2004, 01:24 AM

You ask questions, and without offering either answers or pertinent evidence, you conclude, "You [jeffbert] skirt the issue very well." Whether or not the IOS was under military contract, neither you nor I can tell. You merely assume such is the case. However in the two previous series and the manga, there is no such collaboration. Thus, unless you can cite specific incidents in this new series, I will dismiss your conclusions as unfounded. B) [/list]

Get a life, man!

Woooooo!
You just proved my point. Tenma had to misuse his authority in building Astro. But his original plan to get funding would have been for a weapon. He burned the IOS down. But our argument need'nt depart away from the metaphysical elements. The question of Tenma'a sanity. Sanity issues arise in the Creator metaphore, David had feigned insanity in order to escape the hand of Saul. Saul (the goverment) had sent rangers (secret police, troops, whatever,) after David. These are hypothetics. Those questions are the questions that any analytical intelligence operative would need to have asked for the extant scenario in the real sense. You are not one of those that think Astro is not real are you? And baby... This is THE life. :wacko:
Cyber Ninja Dageki h34r: h34r: h34r:

[cybotron]

Originally posted by jeffbert@Jun 22 2004, 01:59 AM

[b] Tenma is an obvious metaphor for God the creator.

If it is so, perhaps you would care to state why it is so. [/b]

I love my arguments with you Jeffbert. I learn so much. But I have allready said too much.

[jeffbert]

Originally posted by cybotron+Jun 21 2004, 02:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (cybotron @ Jun 21 2004, 02:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--jeffbert@Jun 22 2004, 01:59 AM

[b] Tenma is an obvious metaphor for God the creator.

If it is so, perhaps you would care to state why it is so. [/b]

I love my arguments with you Jeffbert. I learn so much. But I have allready said too much. [/b][/quote]
You are the one who skirts the question, you offer no evidence, and say that you have already said too much. I agree, but the too much refers to unsupported assertions. It is as though when you have spoken, nothing else needs be said. I bow in your presence, oh great one--not!!

[jeffbert]

Originally posted by cybotron+Jun 21 2004, 01:01 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (cybotron @ Jun 21 2004, 01:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--jeffbert@Jun 22 2004, 01:24 AM
You ask questions, and without offering either answers or pertinent evidence, you conclude, "You [jeffbert] skirt the issue very well." Whether or not the IOS was under military contract, neither you nor I can tell. You merely assume such is the case. However in the two previous series and the manga, there is no such collaboration. Thus, unless you can cite specific incidents in this new series, I will dismiss your conclusions as unfounded.  B)  [/list]

Get a life, man!

Woooooo!
You just proved my point. Tenma had to misuse his authority in building Astro. But his original plan to get funding would have been for a weapon. He burned the IOS down. But our argument need'nt depart away from the metaphysical elements. The question of Tenma'a sanity. Sanity issues arise in the Creator metaphore, David had feigned insanity in order to escape the hand of Saul. Saul (the goverment) had sent rangers (secret police, troops, whatever,) after David. These are hypothetics. Those questions are the questions that any analytical intelligence operative would need to have asked for the extant scenario in the real sense. You are not one of those that think Astro is not real are you? And baby... This is THE life. :wacko:
Cyber Ninja Dageki h34r: h34r: h34r: [/b][/quote]
Oh, have I now?

• "Tenma had to misuse his authority in building Astro." I have never taken issue with this statement, I myself stated as much.
• "But his original plan to get funding would have been for a weapon." Where do you find any evidence for this assertion? Seeing how after numerous times that you have asserted this, without once offering the slightest shred of evidence, how can you expect anyone but yourself to give you any credibility?
• "But our argument need'nt depart away from the metaphysical elements. The question of Tenma'a sanity. Sanity issues arise in the Creator metaphore, David had feigned insanity in order to escape the hand of Saul. Saul (the goverment) had sent rangers (secret police, troops, whatever,) after David."
  How does David's faking insanity relate to Atom's story. When did Atom seek refuge among the Philistines, as David is said to have done? How does this feigned insanity relate to Tenma's actual insanity?

From your defenses of your own unfounded statements, most of which attempt to bend heaven & earth to accomodate them, I conclude that Cybotron must be a member of an Astroboy religious cult. Accomdation is a term that psychologists use to describe this process. When a believer is confronted by facts contrary to his belief, he will accomdate that belief by any of various irrational techniques. Thus he will conclude that evidence against counts as evidence for his belief. :wacko: See Schema Theory

[cybotron]

Originally posted by jeffbert@Jun 22 2004, 04:03 AM

• "Tenma had to misuse his authority in building Astro." I have never taken issue with this statement, I myself stated as much.
• "But his original plan to get funding would have been for a weapon." Where do you find any evidence for this assertion? Seeing how after numerous times that you have asserted this, without once offering the slightest shred of evidence, how can you expect anyone but yourself to give you any credibility?
• "But our argument need'nt depart away from the metaphysical elements. The question of Tenma'a sanity. Sanity issues arise in the Creator metaphore, David had feigned insanity in order to escape the hand of Saul. Saul (the goverment) had sent rangers (secret police, troops, whatever,) after David."
  How does David's faking insanity relate to Atom's story. When did Atom seek refuge among the Philistines, as David is said to have done? How does this feigned insanity relate to Tenma's actual insanity?

From your defenses of your own unfounded statements, most of which attempt to bend heaven & earth to accomodate them, I conclude that Cybotron must be a member of an Astroboy religious cult. Accomdation is a term that psychologists use to describe this process. When a believer is confronted by facts contrary to his belief, he will accomdate that belief by any of various irrational techniques. Thus he will conclude that evidence against counts as evidence for his belief. :wacko: See Schema Theory

ahhh ok.
[list]
[*]"Tenma had to misuse his authority in building Astro." I have never taken issue with this statement, I myself stated as much.
[*]"But his original plan to get funding would have been for a weapon." Where do you find any evidence for this assertion? Seeing how after numerous times that you have asserted this, without once offering the slightest shred of evidence, how can you expect anyone but yourself to give you any credibility?
1.
Common sense would dictate that the IOS is a public govermental agency Jeffbert. Why belabor the obvious? Astro and Dr.O work closely with the police and security forces. In "Denkou" Lightning, Tawashi requests that Astro be put on the case. This means the IOS is part of the Security/Defense establishment. The nature of Astros weapons, particle beam and photonic based, dictates a high level of military research. With all that is implied with the presence of such entity, the remainder my dear Jeffbert is purely deductive logic.
2.
How does David's faking insanity relate to Atom's story. When did Atom seek refuge among the Philistines, as David is said to have done? How does this feigned insanity relate to Tenma's actual insanity?

Tenma burned down the IOS... Yet in the rise of pluto he is not treated as a desperate criminal, not shot on sight, not arrested, he stands there making speeches with his hands in his pockets, at the end he is allowed to go his way. Also I never said Astro was a similitude of David. I was relating to Tenma's so called insanity.

3.
From your defenses of your own unfounded statements, most of which attempt to bend heaven & earth to accomodate them, I conclude that Cybotron must be a member of an Astroboy religious cult. Accomdation is a term that psychologists use to describe this process. When a believer is confronted by facts contrary to his belief, he will accomdate that belief by any of various irrational techniques. Thus he will conclude that evidence against counts as evidence for his belief. :wacko:

The scenario analysis Jeff...
An organization develops a flying AI festooned with particle and photonic weapons. The device was designed and built by the former director. The man is reported to have been insane and to have burned down his own institute of science, yet his creation which the madman programmed, a self programming robot with free will, is reactivated and without reprogamming allowed to run free. Armed with lethal weapons? I am not here to teach deductive analysis of scenarios. But get real, take pause....
Envisage it.
Oh... And don't get mad.... Get even. B)

[fafner]

Well, that's the second time that damn quote tags refuse to work :angry: Sorry guys, you'll have to make some efforts again to read me

In "Denkou" Lightning, Tawashi requests that Astro be put on the case. This means the IOS is part of the Security/Defense establishment.

Sorry Cybotron, but this implication is false.
Tawashi requesting that Astro be put on the case does not imply that Astro belongs to his services. Proof: he requests. If Astro had belonged to Tawashi services, he would have received an order.
Tawashi does not trust Astro because he has free will and represents a potential risk to the city whose security he is in charge. But he is not a fool, he knows that the best way to spot a dangerous robot is to use another robot, even if he doesn't trust fully the last one.

... yet his creation which the madman programmed, a self programming robot with free will, is reactivated and without reprogamming allowed to run free.

Why is Astro allowed to run free? Not because he is trusted by government, but because Dr. O'Shay, the actual minister of science, reactivated him and gave him some freedom. Whether it is a rational behaviour for a scientist is another question, but remember that Tawashi, representing government, is hostile to Astro's freedom, because having a free will he is by definition impredictable. Astro might turn against humans. Although Tawashi appreciates some help from Astro here and there, he would be far more confident if Astro was deactivated, or at least was not unleashed in the city.
So maybe Astro is technically the government property, but he has not its trust. He is not its agent.

[cybotron]

Well, that's the second time that damn quote tags refuse to work :angry: Sorry guys, you'll have to make some efforts again to read me

[QUOTE=Cybotron]In "Denkou" Lightning, Tawashi requests that Astro be put on the case. This means the IOS is part of the Security/Defense establishment.

Sorry Cybotron, but this implication is false.
Tawashi requesting that Astro be put on the case does not imply that Astro belongs to his services. Proof: he requests. If Astro had belonged to Tawashi services, he would have received an order.
Tawashi does not trust Astro because he has free will and represents a potential risk to the city whose security he is in charge. But he is not a fool, he knows that the best way to spot a dangerous robot is to use another robot, even if he doesn't trust fully the last one.

... yet his creation which the madman programmed, a self programming robot with free will, is reactivated and without reprogamming allowed to run free.

Why is Astro allowed to run free? Not because he is trusted by government, but because Dr. O'Shay, the actual minister of science, reactivated him and gave him some freedom. Whether it is a rational behaviour for a scientist is another question, but remember that Tawashi, representing government, is hostile to Astro's freedom, because having a free will he is by definition impredictable. Astro might turn against humans. Although Tawashi appreciates some help from Astro here and there, he would be far more confident if Astro was deactivated, or at least was not unleashed in the city.
So maybe Astro is technically the government property, but he has not its trust. He is not its agent. [/QUOTE]
Of course he does not have their trust, if his designer was criminal he could be a threat.
But Astro is at least an agent of the security forces. And there is a chain of command. Tawashi has to ask for permission to use Astro. Astro is a restricted device. I would conclude that Tawashi is subordinate to O'Shay.
His hat is in his hand. O'Shay above the police chief? Tawashi says "please use Astro on this case" what's that? Is that the same as "use the helicopter gunship on this mission?" Astro command is beyond Tawashi's authority that's all. He must clear his requisition of Astro through a higher authority, to wit, O'shay. O'shay therefore has authority over police business. :wahah:
pure connective elementary deductive logic.

It is obvious that tawashi is speaking to a superior. It is just as obvious that O'Shay has charge over the the investigation.


Dr.O'shay calmly denies the Tawashi REQUISITION...
THESE ARE MATTERS OF SECURITY, AND O'SHAY IS IN CHARGE.

[jeffbert]

In the first place, I never denied the public funding of the IOS, but more than that, you state:

In "Denkou" Lightning, Tawashi requests that Astro be put on the case. This means the IOS is part of the Security/Defense establishment.

This is not a logical necessity. Both are obviously publicly funded government agencies, yet the IOS is probably not part of the city government. I belive Tawashi works for the city police dept. This line of reasoning is an example of Ignoratio elenchi / Irrelevant conclusion fallacy.

In reference to your exchange with Fafner on this, Tawashi having his hat in hand is simply polite. Men do not wear hats indoors. No law, this, just a custom. Watch some old 30s, 40s, and 50s movies. All the men wear hats, from Bogart, to Cagney, from Groucho to Zeppo. This new series combine high-tech futuristic stuff with retro stuff, in case you have not noticed.

The nature of Astros weapons, particle beam and photonic based, dictates a high level of military research.

This line of reasoning is an example of Ignoratio elenchi / Irrelevant conclusion fallacy. I agree with the high-level of research, however, the implication that it must be military research is unfounded. In the first place, the setting is a futuristic city that has futuristic things, from hover cars to robots. Thus, there is a technological base to the whole of society. Tobio rides a hover bike, holograms are used in public school, space travel is almost as common as air travel is now. Even now, I can build my own CO2 laser and burn holes in steel. The plans are available from numerous sources. I can likewise find plans for maser, tasers, stun guns, ultra sonic pain guns, etc. Therefore,

With all that is implied with the presence of such entity, the remainder my dear Jeffbert is purely deductive logic.

is incorrect. It is inductive, rather than deductive reasoning that you employ here. While deductive logic is a surety, that is if a then b, inductive logic merely results in a probability. If a, then b is possible, but not necessary. Do not try to use big or sophisticated words on me, Cybotron.

Tenma burned down the IOS... Yet in the rise of pluto he is not treated as a desperate criminal, not shot on sight, not arrested, he stands there making speeches with his hands in his pockets, at the end he is allowed to go his way.

What is your point? Did I ever say Tenma was a fugitive? I think not.

Also I never said Astro was a similitude of David. I was relating to Tenma's so called insanity.

I never said you did say that. I merely implied that your comparison between David feigning madness and Tenma being mad made little sense. It is an example of Fallacy of the Undistributed Middle.

The scenario analysis Jeff...
An organization develops a flying AI festooned with particle and photonic weapons. The device was designed and built by the former director. The man is reported to have been insane and to have burned down his own institute of science, yet his creation which the madman programmed, a self programming robot with free will, is reactivated and without reprogramming allowed to run free. Armed with lethal weapons? I am not here to teach deductive analysis of scenarios. But get real, take pause....
Envisage it.

It seems to me that I have already shown that you do not understand logical deduction.

[cybotron]

It is mind boggling that you would insist in your argument!!!
But ok... I love it. B)
So the fact that Astro went into the underground with Delta and his robot swat team does not mean he is an agent of Security?
Astro also investigated the sabotage of the Neon Express, his aiding of the police was crucial. The requisition of his person by Tawashi, all this means nothing in your logic? You would not last 5hrs in the field. You have been at the monty python again. That is the only explanation for your bonkers argument. You should have some inkling of bureaucracy, security structures, technostructure, chain of command, etc. You remind me of that scene from the film "Operation Crossbow," when one guy shows the security group intel photos of a V2 rocket at Peenemunde , the devils advocate say's "A balloon... A blimp. There is no such thing as a whopping great rocket of such size, your paranoia shows... Perhaps your neurosis, we've seen this sort of alarmist mental disorder before."
That Astro is an instrument of security is unquestionable. The Astro command structure is obvious to anybody that has ever had experience
of command structure. Tawashi merely being polite? You mock my intelligence.
As I said before, these communications are for the initiated. The very nature of the technology that constitutes Astro's component parts, would be top secret at the very top echelon of intelligence, security, aerospace, and weapons research. Try and crack lockheed avionics, or particle beam research and see how fast the cyber fuzz has your butt against the wall.
Oops. By posting that the webcrawlers will find it. What the hey... You gotta have some fun. :wahah:
As for your device... It's on subject. But the end is the same
for the same reason. He heard what they could not, he knew what they did not. B)
An excerpt from Wagners "Gotterdamerung"


When dealing with Aryan heroics, it is best to have some use of this.
The Avesta
And you tell the office pogue leading his troops into sure death... Continue in the darkness you walk in. It's a shame for those men you are leading into the ambush. But die with dignity like Custer before you.
And then you turn and walk away with whomsoever will follow you, perhaps you can save some few. Hand Salute! :wahah: