The Death of Sigfried "The Gotterdamerung"

[fafner]

Originally posted by cybotron@Jun 22 2004, 05:47 AM
So the fact that Astro went into the underground with Delta and his robot swat team does not mean he is an agent of Security?
Astro also investigated the sabotage of the Neon Express, his aiding of the police was crucial. The requisition of his person by Tawashi, all this means nothing in your logic?

That is you Cybotron who insist in your logical errors
You continue to assert that Astro cooperating with the police makes him an agent of the government. But you pointed yourself that Tawashi had to make his request to Dr. O'Shay, with no warranty to see his request granted. The chain of command is Tawashi -> O'Shay -> Astro , but as you can see O'Shay does not always transmit orders
When someone in the chain of command does not transmit orders, it is unsubordination, unless it is not an official chain of command. If it were unsubordination, then O'Shay would be put before a trial, what didn't happen. And if there is no official chain of command, then by no means people at the end of the chain can be agent of the government.
QED B)
Or maybe you want a formal demonstration in a mathematical logical system with full set of rules and axioms? :wahah:

[cybotron]

In the book of survival, anyone who aids the police in their investigations of others, IS in fact acting as an agent of the police. Anyone who apprehends a villain and turns him over to the cops or goverment agency of law enforcement is an agent of the law. See Sherlock Holmes, Nick Charles, Batman. I have nothing against being Batman or James Bond or Holmes. My heroes have allways been agents of the police and goverment, Marines and Soldiers. From The Fantastic Four,Hopalng Cassidy, The Lone Ranger, Captain Marvel, Commando Cody, Iron man, Nick fury, Spiderman, Superman, The X-men, Astroboy,etc. These have all acted as agents of Law and order. Hated by criminals as the worse kind of scum. Cop Lovers, Police spies,informers, goody twoshoes,etc.
You can stop the argument for arguments sake now.... I win. Everyone has seen the ridiculous arguments you and jeff put forth
I will take the reasonable ones you guys can have what Monty Python called the sillies. :wahah: You can outnumber me, it's OK. Quality is better than quanity.
As allways your faithful friend.
p.s.
SOME I.C.E. CREAM ANYWAY.

CYBER NINJA BOW h34r: h34r: h34r:

[fafner]

Originally posted by cybotron@Jun 22 2004, 08:35 PM
In the book of survival, anyone who aids the police in their investigations of others, IS in fact acting as an agent of the police. Anyone who apprehends a villain and turns him over to the cops or goverment agency of law enforcement is an agent of the law. See Sherlock Holmes, Nick Charles, Batman. I have nothing against being Batman or James Bond or Holmes. My heroes have allways been agents of the police and goverment, Marines and Soldiers. From The Fantastic Four,Hopalng Cassidy, The Lone Ranger, Captain Marvel, Commando Cody, Iron man, Nick fury, Spiderman, Superman, The X-men, Astroboy,etc. These have all acted as agents of Law and order. Hated by criminals as the worse kind of scum. Cop Lovers, Police spies,informers, goody twoshoes,etc.
You can stop the argument for arguments sake now.... I win. Everyone has seen the ridiculous arguments you and jeff put forth
I will take the reasonable ones you guys can have what Monty Python called the sillies. :wahah: You can outnumber me, it's OK. Quality is better than quanity.
As allways your faithful friend.
p.s.
SOME I.C.E. CREAM ANYWAY.
...
CYBER NINJA BOW h34r: h34r: h34r:

So... You see Batman as an agent of the government, do you? <_<
Batman is an outlaw barely tolerated by the police because the police chief, Gordon, is a sympathizer. Batman acts without any authority from the government and, from a legal point of view, is applying his own justice, which is illegal in most countries. Since Batman arrests criminals and deliver them to the police, Gordon don't try to stop Batman. (don't take me wrong, I like Batman anyway )

Let's continue with the X-Men...
To my knowledge, officially Xavier's establishment is a school for gifted children, not for mutants. When Xavier and his friends act, they do so in a totally unofficial way, not even at the request of a government agent. How could they be government agents themselves?

So far you haven't refutated my demonstration. I'm waiting for it
Moreover I think that by saying "As allways your faithful friend." , you technically say that Jeffbert is right when he says you are a believer So far you have essentially shown faith. If you want to convince me, show mathematics instead of faith, maybe Jeffbert is expecting the same thing.

Cyber mathematics professor bows B) B) B)

[cybotron]

Originally posted by fafner+Jun 23 2004, 06:06 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (fafner @ Jun 23 2004, 06:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--cybotron@Jun 22 2004, 08:35 PM
In the book of survival, anyone who aids the police in their investigations of others, IS in fact acting as an agent of the police. Anyone who apprehends a villain and turns him over to the cops or goverment agency of law enforcement is an agent of the law. See Sherlock Holmes, Nick Charles, Batman. I have nothing against being Batman or James Bond or Holmes. My heroes have allways been agents of the police and goverment, Marines and Soldiers. From The Fantastic Four,Hopalng Cassidy, The Lone Ranger, Captain Marvel, Commando Cody, Iron man, Nick fury, Spiderman, Superman, The X-men, Astroboy,etc. These have all acted as agents of Law and order. Hated by criminals as the worse kind of scum. Cop Lovers, Police spies,informers, goody twoshoes,etc.
You can stop the argument for arguments sake now.... I win. Everyone has seen the ridiculous arguments you and jeff put forth  
I will take the reasonable ones you guys can have what Monty Python called the sillies. :wahah:  You can outnumber me, it's OK. Quality is better than quanity.
As allways your faithful friend.
p.s.
SOME I.C.E. CREAM ANYWAY.
...
CYBER NINJA BOW h34r:  h34r:  h34r:

So... You see Batman as an agent of the government, do you? <_<
Batman is an outlaw barely tolerated by the police because the police chief, Gordon, is a sympathizer. Batman acts without any authority from the government and, from a legal point of view, is applying his own justice, which is illegal in most countries. Since Batman arrests criminals and deliver them to the police, Gordon don't try to stop Batman. (don't take me wrong, I like Batman anyway )

Let's continue with the X-Men...
To my knowledge, officially Xavier's establishment is a school for gifted children, not for mutants. When Xavier and his friends act, they do so in a totally unofficial way, not even at the request of a government agent. How could they be government agents themselves?

So far you haven't refutated my demonstration. I'm waiting for it
Moreover I think that by saying "As allways your faithful friend." , you technically say that Jeffbert is right when he says you are a believer So far you have essentially shown faith. If you want to convince me, show mathematics instead of faith, maybe Jeffbert is expecting the same thing.

Cyber mathematics professor bows B) B) B) [/b][/quote]
Stop... Your ignorance is showing. Batman is a deputised officer of the law, not an outlaw. And you do not know anything about heroic pop culture and comic books by what you are saying. The X-men went to the president and offered their services which were accepted. Stop. Iron man and tony stark are agents of SHIELD. Stop your ranting. Watch Sherlock Holmes.... Relax. The interogation is over. Kaput. A boy that does not know that Batman, Batsignal and all is an agent of the police that sent for him is just plain silly. And in the spirit of the monty python brigadier, I'm putting an end to it. Started out as a nice way to keep the topic hot, but now it's gone silly. That's it.... Get out of it.... Get on with something else.
The boy is so alien he does not know that Batman is a police deputy called into cases by the chief of police with the Bat Signal. That's it.... Out. Get on with it!!! The clown has never seen the Adam West Batman series... Must be a russian/german/iraqi spy or something... Out I say. :wacko:

[fafner]

About X-Men I must say I know only about the 2 movies. In these, they act only in the shadow. I have never read the comics, and if you were referring to those, I'm lost.

About Batman, ok, I had forgotten about the Bat Signal...
But Batman still acts without legal authority. I remember a judge saying about Batman that if he really wanted to defend order in the city, he should drop his mask and put a policeman suit.
You may say that Batman offered his help to the police, and his help was accepted, but he is still not wearing a police suit, his identity still unknown. Although it is evident he sweared an "unofficial" oath against crime, Batman have never sweared any oath of loyalty to any legal authority. Applying justice according to his own judgement without legal authority, he is technically an outlaw. But I agree that in practice he serves very well justice and does a job as good as a policeman, maybe better because not stopped by legal matters

Please tell me if a make a mistake about the difference between the legal and practice points of view B)

[cybotron]

Originally posted by fafner@Jun 23 2004, 07:27 AM
About X-Men I must say I know only about the 2 movies. In these, they act only in the shadow. I have never read the comics, and if you were referring to those, I'm lost.

About Batman, ok, I had forgotten about the Bat Signal...
But Batman still acts without legal authority. I remember a judge saying about Batman that if he really wanted to defend order in the city, he should drop his mask and put a policeman suit.
You may say that Batman offered his help to the police, and his help was accepted, but he is still not wearing a police suit, his identity still unknown. Although it is evident he sweared an "unofficial" oath against crime, Batman have never sweared any oath of loyalty to any legal authority. Applying justice according to his own judgement without legal authority, he is technically an outlaw. But I agree that in practice he serves very well justice and does a job as good as a policeman, maybe better because not stopped by legal matters

Please tell me if a make a mistake about the difference between the legal and practice points of view B)

Batman is a police Deputy. You don't know what you are talking about. If this was war and we were looking for infiltrators the German english speaking troops in GI uniform that were sent behind our lines to sabotage and kill. You and Jeffbert would have been shot already as spies ignorant of American Pop Culture. Go watch the Sherlock Holmes movie I sent you guys and be quiet. :angry:

[jeffbert]

Originally posted by cybotron@Jun 22 2004, 02:35 PM
My heroes have allways been agents of the police and goverment, Marines and Soldiers. From The Fantastic Four,Hopalng Cassidy, The Lone Ranger, Captain Marvel, Commando Cody, Iron man, Nick fury, Spiderman, Superman, The X-men, Astroboy,etc. These have all acted as agents of Law and order.

You must really have a selective memory or knowledge of these characters. While it may indeed be true that some have always had recognition as officially deputized law enforcers, others do not share that distinction. Spiderman & The X-men have usually been depicted as operating outside the law. B) <_< However, you interpret the fact that they are good guys as if it meant that they are duly deputized law enforcers. In the daily comics, Spiderman may be viewed as such; however, this does not hold in the comic books. OK, it has been 20 years since I read a Spiderman comic book, but the thing that you see as universally true is far from it.

As you misinterpret those facts, you have also misinterpreted Atom's occasional work for the police. You commit Equivocation when you use the word 'agent.' You say that anyone who acts on behalf of x is an agent of x. However, your first use of this word was in this form "But Astro is at least an agent of the security forces. And there is a chain of command. Tawashi has to ask for permission to use Astro. Astro is a restricted device. I would conclude that Tawashi is subordinate to O'Shay." This use makes him either an employee of the police or as a robot, an item owned by it or some other govt. agency. Whether or not the central govt. owns him, the city govt. does not own him. As such he is not subject to the city police dept's juristiction any more so than any privately owned robot. These are two very different meanings, and you seem to have abandoned your first position, that of Atom being an agent of the police as G. Gordon Liddy (who resembles Tawashi, BTW) was an FBI agent, and as such an employee thereof. Having this position refuted, you then continued to employ the word 'agent', but with a different meaning. Was this your attempt to save face? You thought you could cover your error by changing your argument, just slightly, hoping nobody would notice that slight change!

[cybotron]

Originally posted by jeffbert+Jun 23 2004, 09:04 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (jeffbert @ Jun 23 2004, 09:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--cybotron@Jun 22 2004, 02:35 PM
My heroes have allways been agents of the police and goverment, Marines and Soldiers. From The Fantastic Four,Hopalng Cassidy, The Lone Ranger, Captain Marvel, Commando Cody, Iron man, Nick fury, Spiderman, Superman, The X-men, Astroboy,etc. These have all acted as agents of Law and order.

You must really have a selective memory or knowledge of these characters. While it may indeed be true that some have always had recognition as officially deputized law enforcers, others do not share that distinction. Spiderman & The X-men have usually been depicted as operating outside the law. B) <_< However, you interpret the fact that they are good guys as if it meant that they are duly deputized law enforcers. In the daily comics, Spiderman may be viewed as such; however, this does not hold in the comic books. OK, it has been 20 years since I read a Spiderman comic book, but the thing that you see as universally true is far from it.

As you misinterpret those facts, you have also misinterpreted Atom's occasional work for the police. You commit Equivocation when you use the word 'agent.' You say that anyone who acts on behalf of x is an agent of x. However, your first use of this word was in this form "But Astro is at least an agent of the security forces. And there is a chain of command. Tawashi has to ask for permission to use Astro. Astro is a restricted device. I would conclude that Tawashi is subordinate to O'Shay." This use makes him either an employee of the police or as a robot, an item owned by it or some other govt. agency. Whether or not the central govt. owns him, the city govt. does not own him. As such he is not subject to the city police dept's juristiction any more so than any privately owned robot. These are two very different meanings, and you seem to have abandoned your first position, that of Atom being an agent of the police as G. Gordon Liddy (who resembles Tawashi, BTW) was an FBI agent, and as such an employee thereof. Having this position refuted, you then continued to employ the word 'agent', but with a different meaning. Was this your attempt to save face? You thought you could cover your error by changing your argument, just slightly, hoping nobody would notice that slight change! [/b][/quote]
They are voluntary assets of Law enforcement. Acting as detectives and crime fighting agents. They investigate crime, interfere with criminal enterprise, and turn over into the hands of the police authority any criminals that they apprehend. That's all that's required to be an agent of law enforcement or security. In any sane book.
be quiet... Go watch Sherlock Holmes.... Answer the questions I posted.

[fafner]

Originally posted by Cybotron
They are voluntary assets of Law enforcement. Acting as detectives and crime fighting agents. They investigate crime, interfere with criminal enterprise, and turn over into the hands of the police authority any criminals that they apprehend. That's all that's required to be an agent of law enforcement or security. In any sane book.
be quiet... Go watch Sherlock Holmes.... Answer the questions I posted.

So arresting people and turn them over to the police is the only requirement to be an agent of the government? So let's say I buy a riffle at a weapon store and start arresting suspect people... How much time do you think will pass before the (real) police pops up and put ME in jail? :wacko:
To my knowledge, Sherlock Holmes investigates, but gives the proofs to the police and let them finish the job. This is the legal way to act. If Sherlock Holmes proceeded to arrest people by himself that would be technically illegal. I don't know however if the police would jail him

Sherlock Holmes can be considered a government agent as he fully cooperates with it and remains in the strict path of the law. Batman is technically an outlaw, but acts in the same direction as the government in the crime field. He is technically acting as an agent, but is not an agent, because he does not act according to the law nor the procedures. He just falls on the offender from who knows where, neutralize him/her and turn him/her over to the police. No legal authority, no mandat to enter private house.

And about the movie you put in another topic... Again that's very kind of you, but I can't watch it because again I can't predownload the data on my disc, my internet connection won't allow me to watch it in real time

[jeffbert]

Originally posted by cybotron+Jun 23 2004, 12:41 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (cybotron @ Jun 23 2004, 12:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -jeffbert@Jun 23 2004, 09:04 AM
<!--QuoteBegin--cybotron@Jun 22 2004, 02:35 PM
[b] My heroes have allways been agents of the police and goverment, Marines and Soldiers. From The Fantastic Four,Hopalng Cassidy, The Lone Ranger, Captain Marvel, Commando Cody, Iron man, Nick fury, Spiderman, Superman, The X-men, Astroboy,etc. These have all acted as agents of Law and order.

You must really have a selective memory or knowledge of these characters. While it may indeed be true that some have always had recognition as officially deputized law enforcers, others do not share that distinction. Spiderman & The X-men have usually been depicted as operating outside the law. B) <_< However, you interpret the fact that they are good guys as if it meant that they are duly deputized law enforcers. In the daily comics, Spiderman may be viewed as such; however, this does not hold in the comic books. OK, it has been 20 years since I read a Spiderman comic book, but the thing that you see as universally true is far from it.

As you misinterpret those facts, you have also misinterpreted Atom's occasional work for the police. You commit Equivocation when you use the word 'agent.' You say that anyone who acts on behalf of x is an agent of x. However, your first use of this word was in this form "But Astro is at least an agent of the security forces. And there is a chain of command. Tawashi has to ask for permission to use Astro. Astro is a restricted device. I would conclude that Tawashi is subordinate to O'Shay." This use makes him either an employee of the police or as a robot, an item owned by it or some other govt. agency. Whether or not the central govt. owns him, the city govt. does not own him. As such he is not subject to the city police dept's juristiction any more so than any privately owned robot. These are two very different meanings, and you seem to have abandoned your first position, that of Atom being an agent of the police as G. Gordon Liddy (who resembles Tawashi, BTW) was an FBI agent, and as such an employee thereof. Having this position refuted, you then continued to employ the word 'agent', but with a different meaning. Was this your attempt to save face? You thought you could cover your error by changing your argument, just slightly, hoping nobody would notice that slight change! [/b]

They are voluntary assets of Law enforcement. Acting as detectives and crime fighting agents. They investigate crime, interfere with criminal enterprise, and turn over into the hands of the police authority any criminals that they apprehend. That's all that's required to be an agent of law enforcement or security. In any sane book.
be quiet... Go watch Sherlock Holmes.... Answer the questions I posted. [/b][/quote]
So what is your point? I have not said anything contrary to this, rather that some of them operate outside the law (x-Men & Spiderman), so whether or not they act for good against evil, they are not acting in any official capacity. Being self-appointed crime-fighters is far from being deputized crime-fighters.

Once again, you have avoided the subject. As I have already clearly stated, you use 'agent' in 2 different ways. After you felt that you could not defend your using it to mean one who acts in an official capacity, who is employed by the govt & under its authority, you used it as one who acts on behalf of the govt., but has no official ststus (see above for a better argument of this point). You are the one who skirts the issue.

By your reasoning, even though the govt. was out to destroy him, Mighty Joe Young was an agent of the fire dept., & therefore of the govt., because he rescued orphans from the top floor of of the burning building.

You would say that cub scouts who go out on a Saturday morning to pick up trash from the roadside are agents of the govt., because they took actions that are the govt.'s responsibility. :wacko: :blink: