The Death of Sigfried "The Gotterdamerung"

[cybotron]

Originally posted by jeffbert+Jun 24 2004, 12:37 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (jeffbert @ Jun 24 2004, 12:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -cybotron@Jun 23 2004, 12:41 AM

Originally posted by -jeffbert@Jun 23 2004, 09:04 AM
[b] <!--QuoteBegin--cybotron@Jun 22 2004, 02:35 PM
[b] My heroes have allways been agents of the police and goverment, Marines and Soldiers. From The Fantastic Four,Hopalng Cassidy, The Lone Ranger, Captain Marvel, Commando Cody, Iron man, Nick fury, Spiderman, Superman, The X-men, Astroboy,etc. These have all acted as agents of Law and order.

You must really have a selective memory or knowledge of these characters. While it may indeed be true that some have always had recognition as officially deputized law enforcers, others do not share that distinction. Spiderman & The X-men have usually been depicted as operating outside the law. B) <_< However, you interpret the fact that they are good guys as if it meant that they are duly deputized law enforcers. In the daily comics, Spiderman may be viewed as such; however, this does not hold in the comic books. OK, it has been 20 years since I read a Spiderman comic book, but the thing that you see as universally true is far from it.

As you misinterpret those facts, you have also misinterpreted Atom's occasional work for the police. You commit Equivocation when you use the word 'agent.' You say that anyone who acts on behalf of x is an agent of x. However, your first use of this word was in this form "But Astro is at least an agent of the security forces. And there is a chain of command. Tawashi has to ask for permission to use Astro. Astro is a restricted device. I would conclude that Tawashi is subordinate to O'Shay." This use makes him either an employee of the police or as a robot, an item owned by it or some other govt. agency. Whether or not the central govt. owns him, the city govt. does not own him. As such he is not subject to the city police dept's juristiction any more so than any privately owned robot. These are two very different meanings, and you seem to have abandoned your first position, that of Atom being an agent of the police as G. Gordon Liddy (who resembles Tawashi, BTW) was an FBI agent, and as such an employee thereof. Having this position refuted, you then continued to employ the word 'agent', but with a different meaning. Was this your attempt to save face? You thought you could cover your error by changing your argument, just slightly, hoping nobody would notice that slight change! [/b]

They are voluntary assets of Law enforcement. Acting as detectives and crime fighting agents. They investigate crime, interfere with criminal enterprise, and turn over into the hands of the police authority any criminals that they apprehend. That's all that's required to be an agent of law enforcement or security. In any sane book.
be quiet... Go watch Sherlock Holmes.... Answer the questions I posted. [/b]

So what is your point? I have not said anything contrary to this, rather that some of them operate outside the law (x-Men & Spiderman), so whether or not they act for good against evil, they are not acting in any official capacity. Being self-appointed crime-fighters is far from being deputized crime-fighters.

Once again, you have avoided the subject. As I have already clearly stated, you use 'agent' in 2 different ways. After you felt that you could not defend your using it to mean one who acts in an official capacity, who is employed by the govt & under its authority, you used it as one who acts on behalf of the govt., but has no official ststus (see above for a better argument of this point). You are the one who skirts the issue.

By your reasoning, even though the govt. was out to destroy him, Mighty Joe Young was an agent of the fire dept., & therefore of the govt., because he rescued orphans from the top floor of of the burning building.

You would say that cub scouts who go out on a Saturday morning to pick up trash from the roadside are agents of the govt., because they took actions that are the govt.'s responsibility. :wacko: :blink: [/b][/quote]
while mighty joe young is acting for the benifit of society, he is not making an actual judgement based on society's view of good and evil. He is not interfering with criminal enterprise on an intelligence level. Batman is, astro is, Spiderman is. spiderman is making a citizens arrest of a mugger, he apprehends him, he encases him in a web, and leaves him for police. We just had a guy killed here for aiding the police against gangsters. People have tried to kill Spiderman for stopping their crimes. But Astro actually goes out with the police, even as Sherlock Holmes goes out with the police. Holmes will pull a gun and hold the criminal for the police, the police will say thank you Mr. Holmes, we would never had broken this case without you. Just like Astro. There are secret police, no one knows who they are, not even the official police. They are on a need to know basis. They are secret agents of the police. All super heroes act as agents of the police. :wahah:

[fafner]

Originally posted by Cybotron
The chain of command is Tawashi -> O'Shay -> Astro , but as you can see O'Shay does not always transmit orders
When someone in the chain of command does not transmit orders, it is unsubordination, unless it is not an official chain of command. If it were unsubordination, then O'Shay would be put before a trial, what didn't happen. And if there is no official chain of command, then by no means people at the end of the chain can be agent of the government.
QED B)
Or maybe you want a formal demonstration in a mathematical logical system with full set of rules and axioms? :wahah:

You still haven't refutate it. You may break the demonstration by 3 ways:
1) Prove that an axiom is unfounded.
2) Prove that there is an error in the reasonning.
3) Demonstrate a theorem that asserts the contrary, generally prove that the logical system is inconsistant.
Only by exhibiting point 1, 2, or 3, you will refutate the theorem.
Your turn Cybotron

[jeffbert]

• 1.

  Originally posted by cybotron+Jun 24 2004, 12:10 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (cybotron @ Jun 24 2004, 12:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

  Originally posted by -jeffbert@Jun 24 2004, 12:37 AM
  

  Originally posted by -cybotron@Jun 23 2004, 12:41 AM
  [b]

  Originally posted by -jeffbert@Jun 23 2004, 09:04 AM
  [b]

  Originally posted by -cybotron@Jun 22 2004, 02:35 PM
  [b] My heroes have allways been agents of the police and goverment, Marines and Soldiers. From The Fantastic Four,Hopalng Cassidy, The Lone Ranger, Captain Marvel, Commando Cody, Iron man, Nick fury, Spiderman, Superman, The X-men, Astroboy,etc. These have all acted as agents of Law and order.

  
  You must really have a selective memory or knowledge of these characters. While it may indeed be true that some have always had recognition as officially deputized law enforcers, others do not share that distinction. Spiderman & The X-men have usually been depicted as operating outside the law. B) However, you interpret the fact that they are good guys as if it meant that they are duly deputized law enforcers… but the thing that you see as universally true is far from it.
  
  As you misinterpret those facts, you have also misinterpreted Atom's occasional work for the police. You commit Equivocation when you use the word 'agent.' You say that anyone who acts on behalf of x is an agent of x. However, your first use of this word was in this form. <span style='color range'>Definition A "But Astro is at least an agent of the security forces. And there is a chain of command. Tawashi has to ask for permission to use Astro. Astro is a restricted device. I would conclude that Tawashi is subordinate to O'Shay." </span>This use makes him either an employee of the police or as a robot, an item owned by it or some other govt. agency. Whether or not the central govt. owns him, the city govt. does not own him. As such he is not subject to the city police dept's juristiction any more so than any privately owned robot. These are two very different meanings, and you seem to have abandoned your first position, that of Atom being an agent of the police as G. Gordon Liddy (who resembles Tawashi, BTW) was an FBI agent, and as such an employee thereof. Having this position refuted, you then continued to employ the word 'agent', but with a different meaning. Was this your attempt to save face? You thought you could cover your error by changing your argument, just slightly, hoping nobody would notice that slight change! [/b]

  
  Definition B They are voluntary assets of Law enforcement. Acting as detectives and crime fighting agents. They investigate crime, interfere with criminal enterprise, and turn over into the hands of the police authority any criminals that they apprehend. That's all that's required to be an agent of law enforcement or security… Being self-appointed crime-fighters is far from being deputized crime-fighters.
  … [/b]

  
  By your reasoning, even though the govt. was out to destroy him, Mighty Joe Young was an agent of the fire dept., & therefore of the govt., because he rescued orphans from the top floor of of the burning building.
  
  You would say that cub scouts who go out on a Saturday morning to pick up trash from the roadside are agents of the govt., because they took actions that are the govt.'s responsibility.[/b]

  
  .Definition C while mighty joe young is acting for the benifit of society, he is not making an actual judgement based on society's view of good and evil. He is not interfering with criminal enterprise on an intelligence level. Batman is, astro is, Spiderman is. spiderman is making a citizens arrest of a mugger, he apprehends him, he encases him in a web, and leaves him for police... But Astro actually goes out with the police, even as Sherlock Holmes goes out with the police. Holmes will pull a gun and hold the criminal for the police, the police will say thank you Mr. Holmes, we would never had broken this case without you. Just like Astro. There are secret police, no one knows who they are, not even the official police. They are on a need to know basis. They are secret agents of the police. All super heroes act as agents of the police.[/b]

  
  
• 2.

  Originally posted by -cybotron@Jun 21 2004, 03:53 PM
  Common sense would dictate that the IOS is a public govermental agency Jeffbert. Why belabor the obvious? Astro and Dr.O work closely with the police and security forces. In "Denkou" Lightning, Tawashi requests that Astro be put on the case. This means the IOS is part of the Security/Defense establishment.

  
  
• 3.

  Originally posted by -cybotron@Jun 22 2004, 02:35 PM
  .[b]Definition D In the book of survival, anyone who aids the police in their investigations of others, IS in fact acting as an agent of the police. Anyone who apprehends a villain and turns him over to the cops or goverment agency of law enforcement is an agent of the law. See Sherlock Holmes, Nick Charles, Batman... These have all acted as agents of Law and order- Quality is better than quanity.
  [/b]

  
  
• 4.

  Originally posted by -cybotron@Jun 21 2004, 11:47 PM
  It is mind boggling that you would insist in your argument!!!
  But ok... I love it.
  .[b]Definition E So the fact that Astro went into the underground with Delta and his robot swat team does not mean he is an agent of Security?
  Astro also investigated the sabotage of the Neon Express, his aiding of the police was crucial. The requisition of his person by Tawashi, all this means nothing in your logic? ...
  You would not last 5hrs in the field. You have been at the monty python again. That is the only explanation for your bonkers argument. You should have some inkling of bureaucracy, security structures, technostructure, chain of command, etc. You remind me of that scene from the film "Operation Crossbow," when one guy shows the security group intel photos of a V2 rocket at Peenemunde , the devils advocate say's "A balloon... A blimp. There is no such thing as a whopping great rocket of such size, your paranoia shows... Perhaps your neurosis, we've seen this sort of alarmist mental disorder before."
  That Astro is an instrument of security is unquestionable. The Astro command structure is obvious to anybody that has ever had experience
  of command structure. Tawashi merely being polite? You mock my intelligence.
  As I said before, these communications are for the initiated. The very nature of the technology that constitutes Astro's component parts, would be top secret at the very top echelon of intelligence, security, aerospace, and weapons research. Try and crack lockheed avionics, or particle beam research and see how fast the cyber fuzz has your butt against the wall.
  Oops. By posting that the webcrawlers will find it. What the hey... You gotta have some fun. :wahah:
  As for your device... It's on subject. But the end is the same
  for the same reason. He heard what they could not, he knew what they did not. B)
  An excerpt from Wagners "Gotterdamerung"
  
  
  When dealing with Aryan heroics, it is best to have some use of this.
  The Avesta
  And you tell the office pogue leading his troops into sure death... Continue in the darkness you walk in. It's a shame for those men you are leading into the ambush. But die with dignity like Custer before you.
  And then you turn and walk away with whomsoever will follow you, perhaps you can save some few. Hand Salute! [/b]

You resort to different definitions of the word 'agent,' according to your current need. List item #1 contains your use of my quote in which I quote your own definition. However, in your own use of there quotes, you contradict your own definition.

• [b]Definition A "But Astro is at least an agent of the security forces. And there is a chain of command. Tawashi has to ask for permission to use Astro. Astro is a restricted device. I would conclude that Tawashi is subordinate to O'Shay." [/b]

• Definition B

  They are voluntary assets of Law enforcement. Acting as detectives and crime fighting agents. They investigate crime, interfere with criminal enterprise, and turn over into the hands of the police authority any criminals that they apprehend. That's all that's required to be an agent of law enforcement or security… Being self-appointed crime-fighters is far from being deputized crime-fighters.
  …

  
  
• 
  

  [b]Definition C while mighty joe young is acting for the benifit of society, he is not making an actual judgement based on society's view of good and evil. He is not interfering with criminal enterprise on an intelligence level. Batman is, astro is, Spiderman is. spiderman is making a citizens arrest of a mugger, he apprehends him, he encases him in a web, and leaves him for police... But Astro actually goes out with the police, even as Sherlock Holmes goes out with the police. Holmes will pull a gun and hold the criminal for the police, the police will say thank you Mr. Holmes, we would never had broken this case without you. Just like Astro. There are secret police, no one knows who they are, not even the official police. They are on a need to know basis. They are secret agents of the police. All super heroes act as agents of the police. [/b]

• Originally posted by -cybotron@Jun 22 2004, 02:35 PM
  .[b]Definition D In the book of survival, anyone who aids the police in their investigations of others, IS in fact acting as an agent of the police. Anyone who apprehends a villain and turns him over to the cops or goverment agency of law enforcement is an agent of the law. See Sherlock Holmes, Nick Charles, Batman... These have all acted as agents of Law and order- Quality is better than quanity.
  As allways your faithful friend.
  
  CYBER NINJA BOW h34r: h34r: h34r:[/b]

• <!--QuoteBegin--cybotron@Jun 21 2004, 11:47 PM
  It is mind boggling that you would insist in your argument!!!
  But ok... I love it.
  [b]Definition E So the fact that Astro went into the underground with Delta and his robot swat team does not mean he is an agent of Security?
  Astro also investigated the sabotage of the Neon Express, his aiding of the police was crucial. The requisition of his person by Tawashi, all this means nothing in your logic? ... [/b][/quote]
  

Definitions A & E make an 'agent' an officially recognised person, who both has authority and is under someone else's authority. This excludes vigilantes, passers by, and any other civilians, Whether human or robot.

Definitions B & D make an 'agent' anyone who takes action for the benefit of another, in this case, the government. You are guilty of equivocation, Cybotron!
By definition B Mighty Joe Young would surely be an agent of the Fire Dept, & hence of the government.Definition A Make up your mind which of there two definitions you wish to support, & we can procede from there.

[fafner]

Yeah! Right Jeffbert! Let's put all on the table :wahah:
The next part will be to construct all the logical system, then proceed to the final demonstration
Cyber Ninja is called for the mathematics exam h34r: h34r: h34r:

[cybotron]

Originally posted by fafner@Jun 25 2004, 06:18 AM
Yeah! Right Jeffbert! Let's put all on the table :wahah:
The next part will be to construct all the logical system, then proceed to the final demonstration
Cyber Ninja is called for the mathematics exam h34r: h34r: h34r:

You guy's will have to excuse me. i had to reinstall internet security and repair windows Xp, what a job.
There are more than one type of Agent....
Everyone will want to be an Astro. But they don't have what it takes to.... "Become A Real Astroboy."
The Astros rule cyber space. B)

Cyber Ninja Dageki h34r: h34r: h34r:
You don't have forever to study that Sherlock Holmes stream.

[cybotron]

Ok... I'm back online. Let me say this. All heroes are Agents of Law and Order. All Super Heroes are agents of the police. When men are young they hear of and love the stories of heroes, heroes fighting crime, saving the poor and weak from those that are too strong for them. Saving the maiden in distress from the monster. From merciless thugs and wanton killers. the Lone Ranger,Superman, Spiderman, Sherlock Holmes, Samson, Hercules, Jesus, Arjuna, Krishna, Robin Hood, these are Heroes unto the child.
Then Adharma the allure of evil, the need for the anti social mindset to justify itself to itself takes over, and the Atman withdraws from heroics. Alienates itself from the Heroes. Sinks into Anti-Heroics, aduration of Darkness. The police are coming, the light of school, the light of love, the light of society, the light of order, the light of do unto others as you would have them do unto you, the light of Love thy neighbor, the light of thou shalt not kill, and they flee, their enemy is coming that does oppress their mind, soul, and freedom. Their freedom to rob and kill and take what they want, so that they can reign in the streets of their territory, where through the power of antiheroism they are heroes of gangsterism and pandaemonic antisocial fury. They cannot stand the thought of the heroes of old that are antithesis of their Atman. Their new heroes are thugs and pimps and anarchists, and actual demons like Hellboy. These they say in their hearts will replace the olden false heroes. These are the true heroes they say. And thus trapped by this Maya they perish, amid the restoration of the force of Heaven which is upheld by Dharma. Some tramp upon the concept and love of Xmas simply because say they God is in it, and they actually hate the concepts of God, country, community, duty.... These things are hateful to them. But they will bring forth their children to Manson, Hitler, Dahmer, Iblis, Terrorists, murderers, and actual Daemons, and bring them up to adorate and Sajdah the Antithesis of what is good. In Psi-ops, one finds that if he can find the Daemons that men follow in the world, and find them early enough, one may gain intelligence useful in war. For men follow the daemonic manifestions into crime and war, and all social and political madness and destruction is rooted in the Daemoniac in the land of the living. And the rise of these forces can be traced, and analyzed by the Recon of the Religious and Political interface.

:wahah:
Faaaaaaaa.


Cyber Ninja Vanish h34r: h34r: h34r:

[fafner]

Originally posted by cybotron@Jun 25 2004, 05:49 PM
All heroes are Agents of Law and Order. All Super Heroes are agents of the police. When men are young they hear of and love the stories of heroes, heroes fighting crime, saving the poor and weak from those that are too strong for them. Saving the maiden in distress from the monster. From merciless thugs and wanton killers. the Lone Ranger,Superman, Spiderman, Sherlock Holmes, Samson, Hercules, Jesus, Arjuna, Krishna, Robin Hood, these are Heroes unto the child.

Just to be sure... Do you really consider Robin Hood as a government agent? Do you really?
Maybe there was a problem with the point of view with Batman, but in my opinion there is absolutely no with Robin Hood: he was an outlaw That doesn't mean he wasn't a positive heros.

Robin Hood represent what good and courageous people do when government fail, when the government falls in a totalitarian regim. Laws become evil, government start oppressing people. In this case laws fail to fullfil their goal to maintain a coherent society. In order to correct the problem, people have to actually break the laws. They become technically outlaws. They can't be agents of the government as they are fighting it. They can't be agents of the former government as it doesn't exist anymore, and sometimes it is nonsense as the government just "mutated".

You still are mute about my demonstration... Have you forgotten it? Should I put you a zero?
Remember: if you don't answer, I can assume there is no error. Because it contradicts what you say, I can assume that if there is an error, you'll thrive to find it. In fact, I am hoping that you refutate my demonstration if there is an error.
I would even say that if you have a clue but don't see how to apply it, I am ready to help you. You don't believe me? just try

[cybotron]

Originally posted by fafner+Jun 26 2004, 01:31 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (fafner @ Jun 26 2004, 01:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--cybotron@Jun 25 2004, 05:49 PM
All heroes are Agents of Law and Order. All Super Heroes are agents of the police. When men are young they hear of and love the stories of heroes, heroes fighting crime, saving the poor and weak from those that are too strong for them. Saving the maiden in distress from the monster. From merciless thugs and wanton killers. the Lone Ranger,Superman, Spiderman, Sherlock Holmes, Samson, Hercules, Jesus, Arjuna, Krishna, Robin Hood, these are Heroes unto the child.

Just to be sure... Do you really consider Robin Hood as a government agent? Do you really?
Maybe there was a problem with the point of view with Batman, but in my opinion there is absolutely no with Robin Hood: he was an outlaw That doesn't mean he wasn't a positive heros.

Robin Hood represent what good and courageous people do when government fail, when the government falls in a totalitarian regim. Laws become evil, government start oppressing people. In this case laws fail to fullfil their goal to maintain a coherent society. In order to correct the problem, people have to actually break the laws. They become technically outlaws. They can't be agents of the government as they are fighting it. They can't be agents of the former government as it doesn't exist anymore, and sometimes it is nonsense as the government just "mutated".

You still are mute about my demonstration... Have you forgotten it? Should I put you a zero?
Remember: if you don't answer, I can assume there is no error. Because it contradicts what you say, I can assume that if there is an error, you'll thrive to find it. In fact, I am hoping that you refutate my demonstration if there is an error.
I would even say that if you have a clue but don't see how to apply it, I am ready to help you. You don't believe me? just try [/b][/quote]
Robin Hood ops

You do err not knowing England. Robin Hood was and remains to this very day, an agent of King Richard the Lionheart. He was and is a hero of the Crusader Christian King and his Knights in time of war against the "Assassin" anti christian Iblis Satanos cultis of Medea Persia . He was and is the epitome of loyalty and faithfulness in the face of overwhelming treachery and corruption.

[fafner]

Originally posted by cybotron@Jun 25 2004, 06:43 PM
You do err not knowing England. Robin Hood was and remains to this very day, an agent of King Richard the Lionheart. He was and is a hero of the Crusader Christian King and his Knights in time of war against the "Assassin" anti christian Iblis Satanos cultis of Medea Persia . He was and is the epitome of loyalty and faithfulness in the face of overwhelming treachery and corruption.

Let's put things this way: does King Richard Lionheart still represent the government?
Or another hypothesis: what would have happen if Lionheart himself had driven the government into an insane totalitarism?
Robin Hood is not loyal to the government, he is loyal to what is right

[cybotron]

Originally posted by fafner+Jun 26 2004, 02:06 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (fafner @ Jun 26 2004, 02:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--cybotron@Jun 25 2004, 06:43 PM
You do err not knowing England. Robin Hood was and remains to this very day, an agent of King Richard the Lionheart. He was and is a hero of the Crusader Christian King and his Knights in time of war against the "Assassin" anti christian Iblis Satanos cultis of Medea Persia . He was and is the epitome of loyalty and faithfulness in the face of overwhelming treachery and corruption. 

Let's put things this way: does King Richard Lionheart still represent the government?
Or another hypothesis: what would have happen if Lionheart himself had driven the government into an insane totalitarism?
Robin Hood is not loyal to the government, he is loyal to what is right [/b][/quote]
he is loyal to Dharma through his loyalty to the King. The king is the Goverment. The usurper is not. B)