The Death of Sigfried "The Gotterdamerung"

[cybotron]

You really cannot see the iconography of military industrialism in my last posting? You really are incapable of seeing the relevance? You don't see the connection between the sword and axe of Brunhilde and what we were talking about? The state control of advanced weaponry? As tightly as Brunhilde is clutching those weapons, that's how hard it would be to get those Photon weapons secrets from any State. Your interrogation techniques are weak. I have no intention of delving unrestrained into the scenarios of Astro weaponry and design. B)

"...His asinine, absurd, irrelevant, & irritating postings..." I confess to the irratating. But you are the only "Absurdist" here.
Frustration? But you really don't get the Brunhilde as Military Industrial Complex and weapons design? :wacko:
A picture is worth a thousand words.

[fafner]

What you say is pertinent Cybotron, but the problem is that I and Jeffbert don't think the way you do. We think by deduction, but you think by comparisons. Although your comparisons are usually pertinent, they can't be used to assert conclusions. That's what I and Jeffbert try to make you understand each one in our own way.
For example, you compare Astro with Batman because they both fight crime. That's true. They both accept eventually to take orders/requests from legal authority (Tawashi/Gordon). This is what is common between these two heroes.
Now let's look about their differences. About the family, Batman has none except Alfred (and even, he technically is not of his family). His parents where murdered when he was a child. On the other hand, Astro has only his father, who is not really his father because he was Tobiyo's father. In the 2000s ( I let other series out of this ), Astro's "father" harms him repeatedly. Tell me if I'm wrong, but this looks as a great difference to me.
Now about their relations with society. Astro is integrated in the society, as far as a robot can be, even more because of his human emotions. Batman on the other hand has two relations: a normal one where he is a rich man in Gottam City, and another one, secret, with no (or very few) human relations other than using violence to arrest criminal and turn them over to the police. There again I see a huge difference between Astro and Batman.

Do you see that the common points allow to compare the two heroes, whereas their differences jeopardize any conclusion that can be asserted from the comparisons?

[cybotron]

Originally posted by fafner@Jun 30 2004, 04:23 AM
What you say is pertinent Cybotron, but the problem is that I and Jeffbert don't think the way you do. We think by deduction, but you think by comparisons. Although your comparisons are usually pertinent, they can't be used to assert conclusions. That's what I and Jeffbert try to make you understand each one in our own way.
For example, you compare Astro with Batman because they both fight crime. That's true. They both accept eventually to take orders/requests from legal authority (Tawashi/Gordon). This is what is common between these two heroes.
Now let's look about their differences. About the family, Batman has none except Alfred (and even, he technically is not of his family). His parents where murdered when he was a child. On the other hand, Astro has only his father, who is not really his father because he was Tobiyo's father. In the 2000s ( I let other series out of this ), Astro's "father" harms him repeatedly. Tell me if I'm wrong, but this looks as a great difference to me.
Now about their relations with society. Astro is integrated in the society, as far as a robot can be, even more because of his human emotions. Batman on the other hand has two relations: a normal one where he is a rich man in Gottam City, and another one, secret, with no (or very few) human relations other than using violence to arrest criminal and turn them over to the police. There again I see a huge difference between Astro and Batman.

Do you see that the common points allow to compare the two heroes, whereas their differences jeopardize any conclusion that can be asserted from the comparisons?

Yes... Yes. Batman has R/D into advanced weaponry, and advanced technology. As does Astro. Uran has no advanced weapons and is a construct of Elefun. Batgirl also is lacking the Tech of Batman. Astro is a Sword. A weapon. The possibility of Robot armies ravishing the world is very real. Dire. Real Dread. The Brunhildic iconography spoke volumes.
But the illusion of Maya prevented Jeffbert from knowing the truth.
He had become a mere plaything of the Great old Ones. Some are alien to Cartoon Land. And thus are unable to read iconographic communications. Thus Jeffbert was unable to grasp the Ka.
But don't dodge the issue. Can you, or can't you see the iconography of military industrialism and war weapons control in the picture? In the Anime? Was I correct, does not the picture relate perfectly with what Jeffbert was speaking of? Am I a punk MIT student to talk unrestrained concerning advanced weapons and military procurement and the design and programming parameters of the Astroboy Robot? Jeffbert has not yet made a VOID of me. So I change the subject or couch the answer. A VOID would show you the blueprint for an Atom bomb just to prove his knowledge on the subject. Or the formula for Sarin.
My response to Jeffbert was perfectly posted. His failure to see IS revealing. :wahah:

[fafner]

Originally posted by cybotron+Jun 29 2004, 09:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (cybotron @ Jun 29 2004, 09:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Yes... Yes.
But don't dodge the issue. Can you, or can't you see the iconography of military industrialism and war weapons control in the picture? In the Anime? Was I correct, does not the picture relate perfectly with what Jeffbert was speaking of?[/b]

The instant you say it the comparison is visible. But Jeffbert has not seen the text yet. According to you, a picture is worth 1000 words. I would say that a picture with a few words is worth 1000 words. The comparison does exist, but it must be spotted anyway in plain text.

Originally posted by -cybotron@Jun 29 2004, 09:43 PM
Jeffbert has not yet made a fool of me.

No one here is trying We just want to make you understand that there is some errors in your reasonings, that can only help you to see your own errors
<!--QuoteBegin--cybotron@Jun 29 2004, 09:43 PM
My response to Jeffbert was perfectly posted. His failure to see IS revealing. :wahah:[/quote]
Again I repeat that Jeffbert and I don't think the same way you do. So something that is obvious for you won't necessarily be for someone else. It is true the other way too: what we say, although obvious for both of us, is apparently not for you

[cybotron]

I feel like Peter Lorre in the U.N. scene from "Voyage to the bottom of the Sea."
Jeffberts postings are.... Preposterous. Astro is a Sword. Though his diatribe is expectable, his failure of grasping the iconography shows that the iconography functions as designed. :wahah:
There will be very few that "...Become a Real Astroboy." As the song goes. <_<

This .jpg was easily found in the Data turbulence caused by the streaming of the Death of Siegfried excerpt in the Astroboy cultus Data.

[fafner]

Originally posted by cybotron+Jun 29 2004, 10:31 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (cybotron @ Jun 29 2004, 10:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Jeffberts postings are.... Preposterous. Astro is a Sword.[/b]

Saying Astro is a sword is reducting. A sword is a mere tool. With no volition at all.
Astro has free will, that a sword will never have.
<!--QuoteBegin--cybotron@Jun 29 2004, 10:31 PM
Though his diatribe is expectable, his failure of grasping the iconography shows that the iconography functions as designed. :wahah:[/quote]
Jeffbert has no more failed than me to understand your comparison: you dropped the image without explaining your point. I didn't see your point the first time, neither Jeffbert did.
Now you have explained it with a few words, and that was enough for me to understand your point (I didn't say "agree", make the difference between "understand" and "agree" ). But stop saying Jeffbert still doesn't understand, since he didn't post anything we must assume he didn't see your explainations yet

[jeffbert]

Originally posted by cybotron+Jun 29 2004, 03:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (cybotron @ Jun 29 2004, 03:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--fafner@Jun 30 2004, 04:23 AM
What you say is pertinent Cybotron, but the problem is that I and Jeffbert don't think the way you do. We think by deduction, but you think by comparisons. Although your comparisons are usually pertinent, they can't be used to assert conclusions. That's what I and Jeffbert try to make you understand each one in our own way.
For example, [b]you compare Astro with Batman because they both fight crime. That's true. They both accept eventually to take orders/requests from legal authority (Tawashi/Gordon). This is what is common between these two heroes.
Now let's look about their differences. About the family, Batman has none except Alfred (and even, he technically is not of his family). His parents where murdered when he was a child. On the other hand, Astro has only his father, who is not really his father because he was Tobiyo's father. In the 2000s ( I let other series out of this ), Astro's "father" harms him repeatedly. Tell me if I'm wrong, but this looks as a great difference to me.
Now about their relations with society. Astro is integrated in the society, as far as a robot can be, even more because of his human emotions. Batman on the other hand has two relations: a normal one where he is a rich man in Gottam City, and another one, secret, with no (or very few) human relations other than using violence to arrest criminal and turn them over to the police. There again I see a huge difference between Astro and Batman.

Do you see that the common points allow to compare the two heroes, whereas their differences jeopardize any conclusion that can be asserted from the comparisons? [/b]

Yes... Yes. Batman has R/D into advanced weaponry, and advanced technology. As does Astro. Uran has no advanced weapons and is a construct of Elefun. Batgirl also is lacking the Tech of Batman. Astro is a Sword. A weapon. The possibility of Robot armies ravishing the world is very real. Dire. Real Dread. The Brunhildic iconography spoke volumes.
But the illusion of Maya prevented Jeffbert from knowing the truth.
He had become a mere plaything of the Great old Ones. Some are alien to Cartoon Land. And thus are unable to read iconographic communications. Thus Jeffbert was unable to grasp the Ka.
But don't dodge the issue. Can you, or can't you see the iconography of military industrialism and war weapons control in the picture? In the Anime? Was I correct, does not the picture relate perfectly with what Jeffbert was speaking of? Am I a punk MIT student to talk unrestrained concerning advanced weapons and military procurement and the design and programming parameters of the Astroboy Robot? Jeffbert has not yet made a VOID of me. So I change the subject or couch the answer. A VOID would show you the blueprint for an Atom bomb just to prove his knowledge on the subject. Or the formula for Sarin.
My response to Jeffbert was perfectly posted. His failure to see IS revealing. :wahah: [/b][/quote]
"Yes... Yes. Batman has R/D into advanced weaponry, and advanced technology. As does Astro. Uran has no advanced weapons and is a construct of Elefun. Batgirl also is lacking the Tech of Batman."

Cybotron himself mentioned this, but does he allow Batman a luxury that he denies to Tenma? Yes, he does. He concludes that Tenma obtained the designs for the photon weapons he built into Atom through his position at the Ministry of Science. But whence did Batman get his? Cybotron must think that he got them through his position as CEO of Wayne Industries; however, we see Batman using some rather unique weapons and other devices. Why does the military (in Batman's world) not have these same devices? I for one, do not recall seeing them employed by military forces in Batman 40s (or was it 50s?), 60s, or even the recent films. Batman is always represented as having technology more advanced than either the police, the military, or the govt. I think this also applies to the Cartoons, but rarely watch them, so, I allow that I could be wrong on this.

Therefore, cybotron has given evidence that supports my position on this question; and, hence, goes against his own position.

However, to remain unbiased, I must now argue against Fafner's "For example, you compare Astro with Batman because they both fight crime. That's true. They both accept eventually to take orders/requests from legal authority (Tawashi/Gordon). This is what is common between these two heroes.
Now let's look about their differences. About the family, Batman has none except Alfred (and even, he technically is not of his family)." While I disagree with using an analogy as evidence, I likewise disagree with trying to expand the explicit comparision between two obviously different things, in an attempt to defeat the analogy by showing differences in other areas. The analogy between Batman & Atom aside, let me use a different one. "Judah is like a young lion, he has his teeth in his enemy's neck." This is a similie, and it asserts an analogy betweeen the man and the beast. However, it makes no claims as to any other similarities. Thus, if a detractor should attempt to defeat it by claiming that lions have tails, claws, & fangs, but men do not, & therefore the stated analogy between man & beast is false. One can clearly see the falure of this reasoning: "Yeah, but I never said that Judah had fangs, only that he was eager to attack his enemy, just as a lion is."

Here is a link to Weak analogy. Fafner is commiting a weak analogy when he tries to extend cybotron's analogy beyond the similarity that cybotron used. I think we all could benefit from reviewing proprely constructed logical arguments, so here is a fairly decent, although brief examination of logic.
Here is a page that links to fairly detalied explanations of fallacies.

[cybotron]

[QUOTE=cybotron,Jun 29 2004, 03:43 PM] [QUOTE=fafner,Jun 30 2004, 04:23 AM] "Yeah, but I never said that Judah had fangs, only that he was eager to attack his enemy, just as a lion is."

Here is a link to Weak analogy. Fafner is commiting a weak analogy when he tries to extend cybotron's analogy beyond the similarity that cybotron used. I think we all could benefit from reviewing proprely constructed logical arguments, so here is a fairly decent, although brief examination of logic.
Here is a page that links to fairly detalied explanations of fallacies.

Yes yes... But these rules have an inherent weakness.... Egotism.
The Nazi intellectual gangster is a perfect example. These sorts of teachings were extant in the German collegiate curriculum.
Any argument against the Eugenics programs and the Nuremberg laws was rejected according to these same ridiculous rules of social Logic. Because no provision is made in these systems for Evil vs good. Thus the German campus died in evil vanity and madness. Disney builds Disneyland, the German intellectual builds Auschwitz. Which is "Logical"... Educated? "Mad?"
IxR =V.... Where I is flow and R is Resistance and V is Motive force.
Take the esoteric knowledge of the "Book of Seven Seals"
You speak of the "Supernatural"... But We speak of the interspatial or multidimensional.


"....I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me...." John 13:18
and of course...
"....The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?..." Matthew 22:44
These arguments and their interspatial geometric anomaly, are irrelevent in egocentric rhetoric and it's dismissive selective logics. They are not Geoglyphs.... You could never prove they are Glyphs. A work of intelligence to convey a message. :wahah:
"...Sit thou on my right hand..." The goal of The D'Jinn. It is a fairy tale place beyond the Sky the inquisition swore and killed women and children for saying the contrary, then they built colleges, and taught logic and Aristotle... B)

IxR=V
Cyber Ninja Dageki h34r: h34r: h34r:

[fafner]

Wow :wacko: The instant I try to speak Cybotron's language Jeffbert confuses me with him and fires on sight
In fact I didn't want to demonstrate anything here, except the weakness of Cybotron reasoning. Cybotron demonstrates with comparisons, I show that whereas the comparisons used by Cybotron strengthen his reasoning, the other comparisons (that he doesn't show) weaken it.
Anyway, I did this to prepare Cybotron for the next part of the post. I will put a disclaimer so I hope no one will shot me this time
<DISCLAIMER>
The next part of the post will be generated by the Cybotron Thinking Scheme © module developped on the purpose to communicate with the unknown entity called "Cybotron".
I, fafner, hereby declare I do not endorse in any way the next part of the post.
</DISCLAIMER>

Now loading module /lib/modules/thinking-schemes/cybotron-0.1-alpha.o ...

Originally posted by "cybotron module"

Yes yes... but you forget about European Astroboy. Tintin the journalist.
He's as famous in Europe as Astro is in Japan. He works for governments. He saved Syldavia from being overthrown by a fascist "coup d'etat" and saved Ottokar's sceptre :wahah:

He works with Dupont and Dupond the Tawashi European brothers. Only their mustaches can tell them apart B) :wacko:

Dupond and Dupont are law enforcement arm. They grab Tintin if he disobeyes orders.

Tintin disobeyes laws if necessary. He does have free will as Astro has. And Dupond and Dupont hit

Tintin does serve the government. But does not serve him the way he would expect. Same as Astro.
They are both unofficial agents of the government. Unofficial agents are not recognized by governments. So they are not.
Feel the power of deductive logic B)

CYBER NINJA MODULE BOW h34r: h34r: h34r:

Unloading module "cybotron"
WARNING: kernel tainted by experimental module
:blink: KERNEL PANIC :wacko:
Must... re...boot <_<

[jeffbert]

Originally posted by cybotron+Jun 30 2004, 01:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (cybotron @ Jun 30 2004, 01:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--jeffbert@Jun 30 2004, 12:07 PM
"Yeah, but I never said that Judah had fangs, only that he was eager to attack his enemy, just as a lion is."

Here is a link to Weak analogy. Fafner is commiting a weak analogy when he tries to extend cybotron's analogy beyond the similarity that cybotron used. I think we all could benefit from reviewing proprely constructed logical arguments, so here is a fairly decent, although brief examination of logic.
Here is a page that links to fairly detalied explanations of fallacies.

Yes yes... But these rules have an inherent weakness.... Egotism.
The Nazi intellectual gangster is a perfect example. These sorts of teachings were extant in the German collegiate curriculum.
Any argument against the Eugenics programs and the Nuremberg laws was rejected according to these same ridiculous rules of social Logic. Because no provision is made in these systems for Evil vs good. Thus the German campus died in evil vanity and madness. Disney builds Disneyland, the German intellectual builds Auschwitz. Which is "Logical"... Educated? "Mad?"
IxR =V.... Where I is flow and R is resistance and V is Motive force.
Take the esoteric knowledge of the "Book of Seven Seals"
You speak of the "Supernatural", But We speak of the interspatial or multidimensional.
... The goal of The D'Jinn. It is a fairy tale place beyond the Sky the inquisition swore and killed women and children for saying the contrary, then they built colleges, and taught logic and Aristotle... B)

IxR=V
Cyber Ninja Dageki h34r: h34r: h34r:[/b][/quote]
The concepts of good and evil are the sphere of ethics, while sound reasoning, regardless of whether it addresses this or some other area of philosophy or any other area, is within the realm of logic. Logic and ethics are two very different things, cybotron. Why must you go off topic? You villify logic because the Nazis used it; this is itself a logical fallicy, called Argumentum ad hominem. Would you likewise consider all values held by Nazis as evil, simply because they were valued by Nazis? There must be rules, and logic is that set of rules. It has little to do with the 'logic' known to Mr. Spock, though. Deciding what to do by way of logic, might be possible, however, it has more to do with sound reasoning in the way of interpreting evidence. Why I even bother with this, I cannot tell, for you are hopelessly the way you are.