How much of Astor/Tobio is inside Astro?

[StellDream]

Originally posted by fafner@Apr 16 2005, 02:29 AM

In an episode at the end, Tenma calls him "Tobio", and gets a firm answer: "I am not Tobio, I am Astro!"

I think . He is angry. So refuse. In the 50th, he says to the Tenma : " father, don't die !".(I see the Chinese edition £©
We know , the robot can't lie . So, here, he admits in the heart£º"I am Tobio!"

[Atoman]

I have the original Japanese version of the 2003-04 series with subs, and Astro has flashbacks to when he was Tobio all the time, like the car wreck, his fathers neglecting of him and other stuff. He learns some of his history in the first two Atlas episodes, but it's not until the end(ep. 50 that he learns the whole truth, that he basically is Tobio in a robot body. All Tobio's memory and personallity have been transfered to him, the same as Atlas had Daichi's transfered to him, which unfortunatley was changed in the English dub to make you think that Atlas was always a robot, Damn American execs. :angry:

As far as the 60's, 70's(Jetter Mars), 80's and manga versions, they only hinted at this and I don't remember any flashbacks Astro had. I guess in the current version, they tried to make Astro as human as possible, good. I like how the Chinese version, according to StellDream, had him say at the end "I am Tobio". Aww.

[jeffbert]

Originally posted by Ray_the_canadian@Apr 15 2005, 01:54 PM
I think through out the entire 2003 series, Tenma was just looking for forgiveness from Tobio because Tobio pretty much told Tenma he hated him before he died. Maybe thats the reason why he built Astro and installed Tobio's memories. In the last epsiode Tenma told Astro that he failed Tobio 3 times in that exact location and it just drove Tenma mad every time he has failed. Its that feeling of neglect from Astro that makes Tenma snap and take his anger on the world, but the third time he was going to take his anger on himself.

I think that is as good as a theory can get based on the limited evidence available. Tenma created a robotic stand-in for his dead son, for whom he apparently cared little while he lived. However, was he as bad or neglectful a papa as Diachi's papa? While he did say something to that man hinting that their situations were similar, what evidence have we of neglect? All we know is that he initially viewed robots as he would regard screwdrivers. When new ones are designed, melt the old ones. I did not see anything that indicated neglect as was implied in the 80s, when Tobio wanted papa to take him to the zoo. Yet, even there, there is only that 1 incident. How can we condemn Dr. Tenma based soley upon that?

Getting back to 2003, Tobio regarded robots as he would likely have regarded rabbits. They have feelings, etc. His papa, having designed them, felt otherwise, believing that they were no more than simulations of living, thinking, beings. Tenma held the traditional Western view: only humans have 'immortal' souls; animals and robots are therefore fair game for any exploitation by humans. Sometime after Tobio's reactivation, Tenma changes his view. Perhaps it was after Atom fought Atlas, but it must have been before he created Shadow; and hence, Pluto. He then believes that robots are superior to humans, and that they will eventually rule them. Not willing to await this development, he pursues it with vigor.

[Ray_the_canadian]

Well said!

[DrFrag]

Originally posted by jeffbert@Apr 17 2005, 08:40 AM
I did not see anything that indicated neglect as was implied in the 80s, when Tobio wanted papa to take him to the zoo. Yet, even there, there is only that 1 incident.

I think neglect was implied. At least, Tenma was always too busy.

Dr Boynton: I'm busy today. We'll have to make it some other day.
Toby: It's always another day.

His last words before the car crash are "It's always the same" (although he says "Dad is a fool..." in the Japanese version).

[jeffbert]

Originally posted by DrFrag+Apr 17 2005, 12:01 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (DrFrag @ Apr 17 2005, 12:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--jeffbert@Apr 17 2005, 08:40 AM
I did not see anything that indicated neglect as was implied in the 80s, when Tobio wanted papa to take him to the zoo. Yet, even there, there is only that 1 incident.

I think neglect was implied. At least, Tenma was always too busy.

Dr Boynton: I'm busy today. We'll have to make it some other day.
Toby: It's always another day.

His last words before the car crash are "It's always the same" (although he says "Dad is a fool..." in the Japanese version). [/b][/quote]
I cannot but speculate what the author was trying to convey by that, but to a kid, any dissappointment will likely seem like it is always that way. It is an attempt to manipulate the parent. Kids seem naturally inclined to do this, since they are physically weak. A kid will cry like he's dying at the mere mention of the parent's intend to paddle him. He will hope to sound so pitiful that the parent will say, "you have suffered enough, I am not going to paddle you." If you remember a recent Simpsons in which the kids were given booster shots, the mere anticipation of shots was greeted by screaming, etc. Kids hoping to make such a fuss that they escape the unpleasant event.

I just cannot assume from that one event that Tenma was a Cat's in the cradle (or whatever the song was) type of parent. He showed no neglect of Atom, rather took a delight in teaching him. & when he could not find him, he was certainly upset. I think it is too bad that Tenma was out of the script after that. In the 60s, he shows up in several episodes, in one, he abducts Atom's family and demands Atom return to being his son in exchange for their safety. He boost his HP in another. Atoman could better name the eps in which he appears than I can.

My impression of him in the 80s is that he wants to be a good father, but has conflicting interests.

[StellDream]

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[StellDream]

I have used [URL=http://altavista. com/tr. ]
I find , it has a lot of mistakes.
So, I use Chinese.

[DrFrag]

I can't read Chinese, but I think I get the gist of the web translation.

"I think that many people wanted to see Astroboy as Tobio. We all hoped Astroboy was human, his body mechanical but not actually a robot. In the 2003 finale, when Tenma plans to commit suicide, Astroboy says to him 'I don't want you to die, Dad.' Even if Astroboy was prepared to sacrifice his own life for Tenma, Tenma had done nothing to deserve that. Only by being a real son could Astro say 'Dad, don't die!' At the moment I'm attempting to write a novel, explaining how Astroboy could turn into Tobio. But once I started, I discovered I didn't know enough."

Is that right?
(I haven't seen the end of the 2003 series)

[dannavy85]

So...how about Astro's moral code? Are the robot laws the only governing guide or did he learn much of it from Doctor O'Shay, Professor O, Doctor Elephant's teachings?